"The Therapist's Chair" with Daniel Hutton Liens

[00:00:00] Personally I wouldn't want a female therapist.

[00:00:03] I don't feel as strongly about the differences between the way men feel things and the way women feel things.

[00:00:09] But I guess I respect somebody else who does feel that that's really important in the same way that some people want to see a Christian therapist or a black therapist or whatever it might be.

[00:00:21] Because they feel like only that person will be able to empathize truly.

[00:00:25] Take the fact that that matters to me out.

[00:00:27] Would there be some validity in that statement that I made?

[00:00:30] It's kind of an impossible question because of the premise of taking the fact that it matters to you out.

[00:00:36] Because that's the only reason it's important there.

[00:00:38] So I would say that someone who's trained and is good at their job should be able to empathize with anyone in front of them.

[00:00:46] Because I think part of empathy is accepting that, no, I don't know what you've gone through.

[00:00:51] You know, and I can't. So explain, help me.

[00:00:55] Help me understand that as best I can.

[00:00:57] That's just kind of an unnecessary hurdle.

[00:00:59] It sounds like it's an unnecessary hurdle for you.

[00:01:02] So like, yeah, why bother?

[00:01:03] You know, skip the bit where it's like, no, I don't know what it's like to be a man.

[00:01:06] Just hire a man.

[00:01:29] Welcome to The Quiet Riot Show.

[00:01:31] I don't know what episode this is.

[00:01:33] Don't really care.

[00:01:34] Is this 40? 4-0?

[00:01:35] This is 4-0, yeah.

[00:01:36] 40 episodes.

[00:01:37] Yeah, so...

[00:01:38] Time for our podcast midlife crisis.

[00:01:42] Well, we technically kind of celebrated...

[00:01:45] We were on the radio.

[00:01:46] We were on the radio.

[00:01:48] Yeah, that was super cool.

[00:01:48] I don't know.

[00:01:49] I really...

[00:01:49] I had a great time.

[00:01:51] Yeah?

[00:01:52] Yeah.

[00:01:52] It was pretty good.

[00:01:53] It was good.

[00:01:53] Yeah.

[00:01:53] I wish we could have done a little longer.

[00:01:56] It always feels short.

[00:01:57] Yeah.

[00:01:58] They're on a timeline, right?

[00:01:59] So...

[00:02:00] Yeah, and they're not going to talk to us for half an hour.

[00:02:03] That's right.

[00:02:03] But the host was nice.

[00:02:04] He was a nice guy.

[00:02:04] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:05] It was a little on the early side for me to...

[00:02:08] I was already up for an hour.

[00:02:09] Be sharp, but it was...

[00:02:10] I think I did okay.

[00:02:12] Yeah, I think so, yeah.

[00:02:12] Had some coffee before.

[00:02:13] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:14] I always like...

[00:02:15] Like, I've done a bunch of radio stuff before.

[00:02:18] Yeah.

[00:02:19] And I always, like, on the way there, I put on music that I like to sing and I sing all

[00:02:24] the way there.

[00:02:25] Oh, okay.

[00:02:25] I try and warm up my voice before I get there.

[00:02:28] Nice.

[00:02:28] And so...

[00:02:29] Because I don't want to show up talking like I do when I first got up.

[00:02:32] Yeah.

[00:02:32] Yeah.

[00:02:32] Yeah.

[00:02:32] Because that's just not...

[00:02:33] Fair.

[00:02:34] It's not good.

[00:02:35] Yeah.

[00:02:35] It's not engaging.

[00:02:36] No.

[00:02:36] I smoke, so it's like mornings are pretty like...

[00:02:38] Rough.

[00:02:38] It can be pretty rough.

[00:02:39] I sound pretty raw.

[00:02:40] So yeah, I tend to like sing all the way there.

[00:02:43] What songs did you sing?

[00:02:44] Uh, what did I put on?

[00:02:45] I put on the new Phineas album.

[00:02:49] What?

[00:02:50] Why are you looking at me like that?

[00:02:53] Speak English.

[00:02:53] He's awesome.

[00:02:54] I have no idea who that is.

[00:02:55] Phineas is Billie Eilish's brother.

[00:02:57] Oh yeah, that guy.

[00:02:59] Yeah.

[00:02:59] And he puts out his own music which is far superior to my preference over Billie Eilish's

[00:03:06] album.

[00:03:06] I don't think I...

[00:03:06] Not that I mind her albums, they're actually not bad.

[00:03:08] I don't think I ever heard his song.

[00:03:10] It's sad music.

[00:03:12] Oh, okay.

[00:03:12] Yeah.

[00:03:13] That makes sense.

[00:03:13] I like it and he has a new album and it's super fucking good.

[00:03:17] Okay.

[00:03:17] Anyways, that's what I was singing on the way there.

[00:03:19] Cool.

[00:03:20] Awesome.

[00:03:20] Yeah.

[00:03:21] No, that was kind of fun.

[00:03:22] Yeah.

[00:03:22] It was surprising.

[00:03:22] It kind of came out of nowhere.

[00:03:23] I guess you had made that post on Reddit and now all of a sudden people are paying attention.

[00:03:30] It was the same post.

[00:03:31] Our guest today is connected to us or got a hold of us through that post.

[00:03:36] Yeah.

[00:03:36] Which was very nice of him to do.

[00:03:38] Absolutely.

[00:03:39] I'm excited to meet him.

[00:03:40] Yeah.

[00:03:40] I don't know what that's going to be like.

[00:03:42] Well, we'll find out.

[00:03:43] Maybe we'll...

[00:03:44] He's a real professional sitting in a real...

[00:03:46] We always say we're not professional, but it's like...

[00:03:50] Fuck.

[00:03:50] Should I bring a box of Kleenex because we're going to be crying maybe?

[00:03:52] He's going to tear us apart.

[00:03:54] I don't think that's what they do.

[00:03:56] Uh...

[00:03:56] No, I'm actually super excited about it because we've wanted this for a while.

[00:04:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:01] Like, we've talked about it a lot of times.

[00:04:03] Yeah.

[00:04:03] And, uh, I think it'll be interesting to pick his brain and like...

[00:04:08] I don't know.

[00:04:08] I don't know.

[00:04:09] I don't know what to expect.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:10] But I'm excited and I hope we learn some things and I hope he has a good time.

[00:04:14] And I mean, I always hope our guests enjoy having been here.

[00:04:17] I think for the most part, everyone enjoyed them themselves being here.

[00:04:22] Maybe Blake had an awful time.

[00:04:24] Yeah, he was great.

[00:04:25] That was a really good episode.

[00:04:28] I really enjoyed that.

[00:04:28] Enjoyed editing that episode too.

[00:04:31] So, um...

[00:04:32] Yeah, I guess you hear everything like a bunch.

[00:04:35] Yeah.

[00:04:35] Yeah.

[00:04:36] I usually...

[00:04:37] I would say I hear it about twice.

[00:04:40] Okay.

[00:04:42] And, um, because the first time when I go through the...

[00:04:46] I do listen to the whole audio because I watch where the cuts are as well.

[00:04:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:51] But then when I do the social media reel posts, um, so I get snippets the second time.

[00:04:57] Man, you do all the work.

[00:04:59] Yeah, uh, we're hiring an intern.

[00:05:01] I don't do anything.

[00:05:02] We're hiring an intern if you guys want to intern.

[00:05:05] Tommy needs an intern.

[00:05:06] And you have skills.

[00:05:07] Because I refuse to help.

[00:05:09] Uh, please, uh, reach out to us.

[00:05:12] I can use an intern.

[00:05:14] Maybe I should reach out to some of my friends who are teachers, uh, if any of the high school

[00:05:17] kids that are finishing up and want to get into...

[00:05:19] Right.

[00:05:20] ...the social media marketing and all that, they could, uh...

[00:05:23] Yeah, we have...

[00:05:23] Right.

[00:05:24] We have lots of job openings.

[00:05:26] Yeah, tons.

[00:05:27] Internships.

[00:05:27] Yeah, no, no pay, but...

[00:05:29] No pay.

[00:05:29] If we make money, maybe you'll get a cut.

[00:05:33] But, yeah.

[00:05:34] Awesome.

[00:05:35] Well, uh, let's not keep them waiting.

[00:05:37] Yeah.

[00:05:38] Let's...

[00:05:38] So, uh, yeah.

[00:05:40] Our guests will be coming up right away.

[00:05:49] Okay, so I'd like to introduce Daniel Hutton-Lians.

[00:05:54] And, uh...

[00:05:55] Got it right.

[00:05:56] I got it right.

[00:05:57] And I love your accent.

[00:05:58] Like, you are...

[00:05:59] Thank you very much.

[00:05:59] You are British.

[00:06:00] Yes.

[00:06:01] Yeah.

[00:06:02] And, uh, you...

[00:06:02] When we...

[00:06:03] We connected through, um...

[00:06:06] Reddit.

[00:06:06] And, uh, thank you for reaching out.

[00:06:08] I really appreciate that.

[00:06:09] It was...

[00:06:09] First time I really made a post on Reddit, uh, about our podcast.

[00:06:14] And, and...

[00:06:15] I got a really good response and a couple few messages,

[00:06:18] or a couple messages that actually were very positive.

[00:06:22] And so, thank you for agreeing to come in to sit here in the studio

[00:06:27] and have a chat with us.

[00:06:28] And, uh, you're a professional therapist.

[00:06:30] And we've been stating on our show that we're not professionals.

[00:06:35] So...

[00:06:36] Yeah, today we are.

[00:06:37] Today we have one.

[00:06:38] By proxy.

[00:06:38] We are by...

[00:06:40] He's three feet away.

[00:06:42] That's right, yeah.

[00:06:43] So, thank you very much for coming, uh, coming to our show.

[00:06:46] Yeah, thank you.

[00:06:46] And let us pick your brain.

[00:06:48] Yeah, of course.

[00:06:48] So, I guess first of all, like, you're not from here.

[00:06:52] No.

[00:06:53] Based on your voice.

[00:06:54] Yeah.

[00:06:55] Uh, he's not from here based on his voice.

[00:06:57] Yeah.

[00:06:57] I'm certainly from here.

[00:07:00] Based on your attitude.

[00:07:01] I guess a couple of sort of personal things before we get into it, but...

[00:07:05] What brought you to Canada or Manitoba or Winnipeg?

[00:07:09] I guess go wherever you want.

[00:07:11] Uh, so my girlfriend is from here.

[00:07:13] Okay.

[00:07:13] It's as simple as that really.

[00:07:14] Okay.

[00:07:14] Uh, we met online and I moved over.

[00:07:17] Nice.

[00:07:17] As soon as you opened the borders after COVID came over there.

[00:07:20] Oh, okay.

[00:07:20] Yeah.

[00:07:20] So you haven't been here all that long, really.

[00:07:22] No, this will be my fourth winter, which is how I measure my time here.

[00:07:27] Yep.

[00:07:27] Sorry about that.

[00:07:28] I understand, yeah.

[00:07:28] Do you like the Winnipeg winters?

[00:07:31] Uh...

[00:07:31] I don't know.

[00:07:35] I'm used...

[00:07:36] Am I used to them?

[00:07:37] I like them.

[00:07:38] I do like them.

[00:07:38] It's still a bit of a novelty to me.

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:40] I forget how hard it's going to be every time and then it starts and I'm like, wow.

[00:07:44] Yeah.

[00:07:45] That's quite a lot worse than I remember it being.

[00:07:47] What would help me to kind of get over that initial shock is like,

[00:07:52] Oh, it's going to get worse.

[00:07:54] This isn't that bad.

[00:07:54] It's going to get worse.

[00:07:56] And then when it hits like the minus 32.

[00:07:58] Yeah.

[00:07:58] This is it.

[00:07:59] Okay.

[00:07:59] Now it should get better.

[00:08:01] It should get better now.

[00:08:02] Ugh.

[00:08:03] That's awful.

[00:08:04] But I do actually, I have a couple friends actually living in England.

[00:08:08] I have a cousin there as well.

[00:08:10] And, um, you know, I could not put up with the cloudy.

[00:08:17] Oh yeah.

[00:08:18] Weather like that's that I'm from Slovakia and that's very similar to winter.

[00:08:22] Winters are like that.

[00:08:23] You get like a couple of sunny days, but then it's like raining and cloudy and it's very

[00:08:28] depressing.

[00:08:29] And I even hear like these last few days, actually yesterday I came home from work and I was just

[00:08:34] like, I don't know what's wrong with me, but I'm just like, I don't want to do anything.

[00:08:38] I had a bunch of things on the list to do.

[00:08:40] And I'm just like, no, I'm going to watch some TV and relax.

[00:08:44] And then my wife mentioned it.

[00:08:46] She's like, well, it's been, we haven't had sun for the last two, three days.

[00:08:50] And I'm like, Oh, that's what it is.

[00:08:53] Yeah.

[00:08:53] Like it really affects me in a negative way.

[00:08:55] So you always have this happy go lucky fucking attitude about winter here.

[00:09:00] And I don't appreciate it.

[00:09:02] I love the, the, the sunny cold days.

[00:09:06] Like they're fantastic.

[00:09:07] And like when I try to explain it to my family over in Europe, they don't get it that it's

[00:09:12] minus 20, sunny, no wind.

[00:09:14] You can go out in a hoodie.

[00:09:15] They're just like, what the hell's wrong with you?

[00:09:17] So well, you can, you're insulated.

[00:09:20] Yeah.

[00:09:20] Well insulated.

[00:09:23] Anyways, enough of all me and my insulation.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:26] All right.

[00:09:26] We have a guest here.

[00:09:27] Well, welcome here.

[00:09:28] We're really glad you're here.

[00:09:29] Actually.

[00:09:30] We've like Tommy said, we've talked so much about having someone who does this for a living.

[00:09:35] So who not does this, but has a professional way of doing this, not just friends in conversation.

[00:09:40] And it's, I'm, I'm excited in a way to, to have you here for sure.

[00:09:45] So thank you for sharing your time and being, being willing.

[00:09:48] Yeah, no problem.

[00:09:49] Nice to have an excuse to talk about it, to be honest.

[00:09:51] Good.

[00:09:51] Yeah, that's good.

[00:09:52] Well, I, I, you probably spend a lot of time listening.

[00:09:55] Uh, yeah.

[00:09:56] Yeah.

[00:09:57] That's, that's 90% of it.

[00:09:58] Yeah.

[00:09:59] Yeah.

[00:09:59] So today you're welcome to talk as much as you want.

[00:10:03] Is that, would you say that listening is, is one of the most important things being a therapist?

[00:10:10] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:11] It's, it's the thing that they go through first in the, the introductory stages of the courses

[00:10:16] in the college and things like that is all about active listening, but then not so active

[00:10:22] that you look like you're doing active listening, I suppose.

[00:10:24] And really taking in what you're hearing, even if it's the stuff that is maybe boring or feels

[00:10:29] unimportant or something like that.

[00:10:30] Yeah.

[00:10:31] Um, checking in with things.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:35] I guess paying attention as much as you possibly can.

[00:10:37] Yeah.

[00:10:37] And it, and it makes up the vast majority of the session is me listening to the other person

[00:10:42] talk.

[00:10:43] Uh, speaking of checking in, why don't we do our check-ins?

[00:10:46] Yeah.

[00:10:46] And then we'll, we'll dive right in.

[00:10:55] You've listened to the show a few times.

[00:10:57] Yeah.

[00:10:57] So you know about the check-in and the process.

[00:11:00] I want to, once we get into the interview part of this, I want to actually ask you about

[00:11:04] what you think of our check-in system.

[00:11:06] Um, I'm assuming he won't say it's shit, but we'll find out.

[00:11:10] Well, maybe.

[00:11:11] Oh man.

[00:11:11] So today let's go.

[00:11:14] When did we record last week in a bit?

[00:11:16] Yeah.

[00:11:16] So man, I'm like a four.

[00:11:19] Ooh.

[00:11:19] Yeah.

[00:11:20] It's been.

[00:11:20] Okay.

[00:11:20] You dropped.

[00:11:21] Yeah.

[00:11:22] Things are pretty tough.

[00:11:23] Um, my wife's been sick and we've been dealing with lots of that stuff related.

[00:11:29] And so much of like her being sick throws off the home, throws off the family.

[00:11:34] It just, everything feels off.

[00:11:37] Uh, now you know how much she does for you.

[00:11:40] I always know how much she does for me.

[00:11:42] But yeah, no, but that's, that's a reality.

[00:11:44] Like I know when.

[00:11:44] Just the impact of like living with somebody going through that is like it, it takes a

[00:11:49] toll.

[00:11:50] It's hard.

[00:11:50] It's hard on my daughter.

[00:11:51] It's hard on me.

[00:11:52] It's hard.

[00:11:52] It's hard on her for sure.

[00:11:54] And I know like I've been there where like, not for like you guys have been doing dealing

[00:11:59] with this for quite a while now.

[00:12:00] Yeah.

[00:12:00] But like, I know like when my wife would be sick for like a week, let's say, and it's

[00:12:04] like, uh, I know how much, how much I need her to do certain things.

[00:12:11] And two, I feel completely useless even though I'm doing certain things to make her feel better.

[00:12:16] I still kind of feel like, Oh crap.

[00:12:18] Like, even though I, I, I, let's say I do her chores or I prepare her food or tea or

[00:12:24] whatever.

[00:12:25] I still can't make her feel any better than she is right now.

[00:12:28] Right.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:28] It's frustrating.

[00:12:29] It feels defeating.

[00:12:30] I think like I'm, I give me a problem and I want to fix it.

[00:12:34] Right.

[00:12:34] Like that's, and maybe that's a, I don't know if that's a male thing or not more so, but

[00:12:40] like for me, I feel like tell me what the thing is to do and I'll do it.

[00:12:44] Like it's a job.

[00:12:45] Like give me a job that helps fix this and I'll do the job.

[00:12:48] Yeah.

[00:12:49] And like, there's no job that can help fix this and it makes me feel defeated and it makes

[00:12:53] me feel like shit.

[00:12:54] And like, I think this week I just kind of hit a wall with it.

[00:12:58] I'm really good at pushing everything down and this week it's having a hard time staying

[00:13:02] down.

[00:13:03] And so it's just, it's been tough.

[00:13:04] It's been a tough week.

[00:13:05] Yeah.

[00:13:06] Tommy.

[00:13:07] Well, so I'm, I'm the opposite now.

[00:13:09] I'm on my way up.

[00:13:10] I'm at seven today.

[00:13:12] Nice.

[00:13:13] And last time I was a four and we traded, we traded.

[00:13:18] Yeah.

[00:13:18] We literally traded numbers.

[00:13:20] And when we did the radio show, we did the check in.

[00:13:23] Right.

[00:13:23] I was a four and I kind of mentioned that I went through some negative, they're not issues,

[00:13:31] but just lots of negativity was happening during last week for me.

[00:13:35] And, uh, now that, uh, uh, my position changed at my workplace a little bit, um, all that load

[00:13:42] that I used to carry is now gone.

[00:13:45] So basically having, having, um, a full time job with two other part time jobs within one

[00:13:53] workplace.

[00:13:54] And I can let you know after, I just don't want to talk about it on, on the mic.

[00:13:58] Sure.

[00:13:58] Um, I, uh, now I only have one job and that's not a full time job and I can literally just

[00:14:04] kind of wipe my hands.

[00:14:06] Um, you know, I seen the signs people didn't want me to do that job that I was doing before.

[00:14:11] And I was like, okay, that's great.

[00:14:13] So now I'm back on the floor working, uh, probably one of the highest paid janitors at work.

[00:14:19] Um, but it's, it's a great job.

[00:14:21] It's, it's non-production.

[00:14:22] I work in a manufacturing, uh, company for a manufacturing company and, uh, yeah, I'm

[00:14:28] non-production.

[00:14:29] So it's, we basically have a task to do and we have eight hours to do it and, and we're

[00:14:35] free to do whenever we want to do it or how we want to do it.

[00:14:38] We just get it done.

[00:14:39] So that's, that feels really nice that I'm, I'm kind of back at it and all the, all the

[00:14:45] heavy weight that I was dealing with, um, in the past is now gone and it just feels great.

[00:14:50] So the weather screwed up yesterday for me, but today is a good day.

[00:14:56] So yeah.

[00:14:57] Awesome.

[00:14:58] Daniel.

[00:14:59] Uh, I was thinking what I'd rate you out of 10, I'd guess let's say a six today.

[00:15:05] Uh, so we moved house, well moved apartment earlier in the week.

[00:15:10] Um, which is stressful, but nice at the same time.

[00:15:14] Cause it's a nice new place and everything.

[00:15:16] Lots of admin that goes with that stress and money and everything, but broadly positive,

[00:15:22] I suppose.

[00:15:23] Nice to have a week off work, even if it's quite a busy week.

[00:15:26] Um, looking forward to Christmas.

[00:15:29] I like the weather mostly.

[00:15:32] Yeah.

[00:15:32] I like it enough.

[00:15:33] I like it enough.

[00:15:34] For it to be a lift rather than a down.

[00:15:36] Okay.

[00:15:36] That's a good answer.

[00:15:38] Yeah.

[00:15:40] So yeah, I'm, I'm feeling pretty good.

[00:15:42] I'd say.

[00:15:43] Yeah.

[00:15:43] Good.

[00:15:43] Yeah.

[00:15:43] A move is always, uh, good.

[00:15:46] Yeah.

[00:15:48] Most people move because it's a good thing.

[00:15:50] I don't, I don't mind the moving part.

[00:15:52] What I, the prior to like where you have to like, okay, wrap everything up, pack it all

[00:15:56] up and like, you kind of go through, do we really need this or do we just throw it out?

[00:16:01] Yeah.

[00:16:01] You know, and, uh, um, so that can be a little frustrating, but yeah, you're going into new

[00:16:06] things.

[00:16:06] So then like, I remember when we moved into this house, I was so happy to paint the whole

[00:16:10] house.

[00:16:10] I was like, Oh, this is great.

[00:16:12] Now the idea of repainting everything, I'm like, Oh God, I don't want to do it now.

[00:16:18] Well, it's lived in, you've lived here.

[00:16:19] That's right.

[00:16:19] So like when you haven't, when nothing's long term lived in, you don't have as much stuff.

[00:16:24] Yeah.

[00:16:25] You moved from the UK.

[00:16:26] And so for you, you probably didn't come with a ton of stuff.

[00:16:30] No, no.

[00:16:31] Just a suitcase of clothes.

[00:16:32] Yeah.

[00:16:33] So really like how much can you accumulate over four years?

[00:16:36] Well, when you've lived somewhere for 14 years, that's a little different.

[00:16:39] Yeah.

[00:16:39] For sure.

[00:16:41] Alrighty.

[00:16:42] Uh, thanks for doing the check in and let's, let's move on.

[00:16:45] Yeah, sure.

[00:16:46] Let's dive right into it.

[00:16:47] So I don't know where to start.

[00:16:49] There's so many questions I want to ask.

[00:16:50] Actually, I know where to start.

[00:16:52] Okay.

[00:16:52] What, what made you become a therapist?

[00:16:55] And like, I know there, so there is difference between therapist and psychiatrist and, uh,

[00:17:01] and a counselor, I guess.

[00:17:02] Maybe let's set those terms first.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:04] I think it can be confusing for people.

[00:17:06] Oh, that's a, I love that question straight away.

[00:17:08] Cause that's perfect.

[00:17:10] This is like a really big thing for me that I get asked a lot and think about a lot and

[00:17:14] see mixed up a lot.

[00:17:16] Um, and it really frustrates me not because it's anyone's fault that they don't know these

[00:17:20] things, but because I wish the industry was a bit more transparent about the differences

[00:17:24] and make it easier to understand.

[00:17:27] So I can't speak for Canada, I should say.

[00:17:30] Yeah.

[00:17:30] But in the UK, I think this does apply to Canada because I work for a North American

[00:17:36] company as well.

[00:17:37] Uh, counselor and therapist would be interchangeable.

[00:17:40] Um, in Manitoba specifically, those words are unregulated.

[00:17:45] Anyone can use them.

[00:17:46] You could say you're a therapist tomorrow and charge for it.

[00:17:49] It's just no one would use your service cause why would they?

[00:17:52] Yes.

[00:17:52] But, but you can say it, uh, in other places, including the UK, those are a little bit more

[00:17:56] regulated.

[00:17:58] Um, but they are interchangeable terms and it would be, uh, four years at college or, or

[00:18:04] a degree or a masters depending on what route you take.

[00:18:07] Um, and then, um, you register with a governing body.

[00:18:11] I forget the name of the, the one in here in Manitoba, but the UK ones would be the BACP

[00:18:16] is a big one or the NCS.

[00:18:18] Would it be like a college of something here?

[00:18:21] Would that, is that what they would call it?

[00:18:23] I'm trying to think what it would be called.

[00:18:25] It's probably called something like the college of Manitoba.

[00:18:27] Yeah.

[00:18:28] Okay.

[00:18:28] Therapists or something.

[00:18:29] Um, and that would, that would be what sets you apart from the people who just use

[00:18:34] the word, I suppose.

[00:18:37] Um, psychiatrists would be medical training and things like that.

[00:18:40] They can write prescriptions, um, be far more training than I have to be really clear.

[00:18:46] They could, uh, diagnose conditions, things like that.

[00:18:49] Um, psychologist is a really kind of in the middle thing.

[00:18:54] Um, it probably, it implies a degree in psychology, but then you could use that to go and do marketing,

[00:19:00] for example.

[00:19:02] Okay.

[00:19:02] Stuff like that.

[00:19:02] So it's, uh, really what you would be looking for if you want to speak to someone who is

[00:19:07] doing that and trained in that way would be a clinical psychologist.

[00:19:10] Um, and the psychologist and psychiatrist would be PhDs.

[00:19:17] Would they have a doc?

[00:19:19] Would they have a psychiatrist?

[00:19:21] Certainly would.

[00:19:22] Psychiatrist if they can prescribe.

[00:19:24] Yeah.

[00:19:24] Clinical psychologists, I would imagine do, but I don't actually know.

[00:19:27] Okay.

[00:19:27] Truthfully.

[00:19:28] Yeah.

[00:19:29] Okay.

[00:19:30] So you are a, I would say therapist in England.

[00:19:34] I would probably say counselor cause that's the word.

[00:19:35] Proper registered counselor, therapist, whatever you want to call it.

[00:19:38] Okay.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] And do you, uh, do you work remotely?

[00:19:43] Do you work in person with people?

[00:19:45] Uh, so I used to work in person face to face with people.

[00:19:49] I do kind of prefer that to be honest since the move because I at first had to work with

[00:19:54] UK based people cause that was where all my training and registrations and stuff were.

[00:19:59] Uh, just switched to all remote.

[00:20:01] Now that I can work with Canadians, I choose to just keep the business with UK and Europeans

[00:20:07] anyway.

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:08] But I now work with a North American agency called spring health who sometimes Canadians

[00:20:15] and us based people will come through that.

[00:20:18] Okay.

[00:20:18] And are you seeing any clients here in Canada yet?

[00:20:23] Like face to face or remotely?

[00:20:25] Or at all?

[00:20:26] Uh, I'm.

[00:20:29] Clients, patients, patients probably.

[00:20:31] I would say clients.

[00:20:32] Okay.

[00:20:32] You would say clients.

[00:20:32] This would be a key difference.

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:34] I would say the only people who should be saying patients are the psychiatrists personally.

[00:20:39] Um, other, yeah, people have strong opinions about that.

[00:20:43] Oh really?

[00:20:43] Yeah.

[00:20:44] That's like a polarizing thing.

[00:20:45] Yeah.

[00:20:45] I guess you're, you're technically using a service when you're, I guess, I don't know.

[00:20:51] Yeah.

[00:20:51] Cause yeah, you're not, you're, you're, you're, you're getting tools and it's like you're,

[00:20:55] you're getting training.

[00:20:56] I think I'd rather be a client than a patient.

[00:20:59] Oh, absolutely.

[00:21:00] Just that.

[00:21:01] I don't think I'm crazy then.

[00:21:05] I'm a customer.

[00:21:06] This is normal.

[00:21:06] This is normal to feel that way.

[00:21:08] Right?

[00:21:09] Like, uh, what made you get into, uh, this job, this line of work?

[00:21:13] Uh, so I had, uh, difficulties when I was a teenager, like really, really low mental

[00:21:19] health.

[00:21:20] Um, like kind of as, kind of as bad as it gets before it's, before things really take

[00:21:26] a turn, I suppose.

[00:21:27] Anything in particular that brought that on that you want to share?

[00:21:31] You don't have to.

[00:21:31] No, that's okay.

[00:21:32] Um, I think home life was, it's weird cause it's like, it's not the most common

[00:21:36] the worst story out there.

[00:21:39] Right?

[00:21:39] It's like the kind of thing that affects a lot of people, but I think it just hit me

[00:21:42] a lot harder than it hits other people.

[00:21:44] Uh, or maybe added up in different ways, maybe just the right combination of things.

[00:21:50] Um, combined with, I mean, just terrible personal choices on top of that, obviously.

[00:21:55] Um, shit.

[00:21:57] Well, you did say you were a teenager.

[00:21:58] Yeah.

[00:21:59] Teenagers don't often have good decision making skills for the most part.

[00:22:03] Yeah.

[00:22:04] No, I regret any of mine though.

[00:22:06] Oh, that's good.

[00:22:07] It made me who I am.

[00:22:08] Well, there we go.

[00:22:10] Um, and then I, and then I saw a counselor.

[00:22:12] I was really lucky that my mum paid for me to see one privately basically.

[00:22:18] Cause similar to here, if you can see them through the national health service, but the wait times

[00:22:22] might be really, really long and you might get a limited service at the end of that.

[00:22:26] So my mum was able to pay me, uh, pay for me to see someone.

[00:22:30] And I ended up seeing her for like four years.

[00:22:33] Oh wow.

[00:22:33] So my mum was paying, my mum was paying a lot.

[00:22:36] Okay.

[00:22:36] Um, over that four years.

[00:22:38] Um, and it was just really helpful, really life changing.

[00:22:42] And towards the end of it, as we parted ways, um, she just mentioned in passing, you know, actually, I think you'd be quite good at this.

[00:22:50] You know, if, if you're ever wanted to be in the other seat, I think you would actually be a good fit.

[00:22:55] And I, I don't know.

[00:22:57] I just kind of sat with that for quite a while, three or four years.

[00:23:01] And then I had one friend who I went to school with who ended up being just like effortlessly successful.

[00:23:07] He just went on to work, moved away from our small town really quickly and then got a really good job, was really happy living a great life.

[00:23:14] And the others of us hadn't really caught up with that by that point.

[00:23:21] And I was asking him about, you know, how do you, how do you do all this?

[00:23:24] And he said, you know, have you ever sat down and actually thought about what you want to do?

[00:23:29] Like what you want life to look like in a few years and how you might get there.

[00:23:32] And I hadn't really.

[00:23:34] So he sat down with me and asked really good questions.

[00:23:38] Like, not just what do you want to do, but like, what do you want a work day to look like?

[00:23:42] Do you want it to be in the office or at home?

[00:23:44] Do you want to work around people?

[00:23:46] Do you want to talk to people?

[00:23:47] Do you want to be away from people?

[00:23:49] Do you want to be able to wear your headphones?

[00:23:50] Do you want to commute?

[00:23:52] How much money do you want to be happy?

[00:23:54] How much do you need?

[00:23:55] And things like that.

[00:23:56] Really detailed stuff.

[00:23:58] And just, yeah, I guess circled back to this tip that I'd got a few years before from that therapist and thought, yeah.

[00:24:07] Okay.

[00:24:07] Seems good.

[00:24:08] Now when you, when, when is the time you break up with a therapist?

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:17] Yeah.

[00:24:17] Yeah.

[00:24:18] Mine broke up with me.

[00:24:19] Oh, okay.

[00:24:19] Well, he didn't break up with me, but he, he kind of said, I think we're, I think we've

[00:24:24] made progress here.

[00:24:25] I think we're okay for a while.

[00:24:26] Yeah.

[00:24:26] And, and this.

[00:24:27] Obviously leaving it open ended to like, if anything changes, come back.

[00:24:31] And I, I had something happen in my life and then I went, I went right away or fairly quickly.

[00:24:36] And I went a lot.

[00:24:38] Okay.

[00:24:38] It was a, it was a, it was a, what now I've was a temporary situation that I needed to

[00:24:44] work through.

[00:24:44] And, um, I kind of leaned on him to, I guess I didn't actually know that was going to happen,

[00:24:50] but what ended up happening is I kind of leaned on him to tell me when we were kind of how

[00:24:55] the progress was.

[00:24:56] Cause I didn't feel it.

[00:24:57] I didn't feel, I wasn't clear enough of mine to figure that out.

[00:25:01] And he was kind of like, I think we're, I think we're good.

[00:25:03] I think you're doing well.

[00:25:05] And like our sessions are different now than they used to be.

[00:25:08] And like, you don't have to come as often.

[00:25:10] Does that, is that a normal thing?

[00:25:11] Does that, I don't know.

[00:25:14] I feel very, I feel very sort of therapist mode now.

[00:25:17] Normal is maybe a weird word.

[00:25:18] Sorry.

[00:25:18] I feel like therapist mode now.

[00:25:20] Do I feel, I feel like I need to say like, well, you're good.

[00:25:23] And normal in what sense?

[00:25:24] We're not just having, fuck.

[00:25:27] I shouldn't have said that.

[00:25:29] Uh, I'm, you are here and you are a therapist.

[00:25:32] So you're going to respond accordingly.

[00:25:34] Some of it.

[00:25:35] We also want you here.

[00:25:36] So it'll, we'll, we'll kind of move in and out of that.

[00:25:40] But, um, yeah, is, I guess normal maybe isn't the term.

[00:25:46] I'm just teasing.

[00:25:47] It's yeah.

[00:25:47] No, that's good.

[00:25:48] It's fine.

[00:25:48] I'm going to use normal as a placeholder where you understand what I'm getting at.

[00:25:52] Yeah.

[00:25:52] Um, yeah, actually that, that phrase he used, you know, the sessions look quite different

[00:25:57] to how they used to is like word for word.

[00:26:00] What I choose to say, which is not something that was ever fed to me specifically.

[00:26:04] It's just ended up the same.

[00:26:06] I think it, that probably is my clue to like, Hey, maybe this person is, doesn't really need

[00:26:12] me now.

[00:26:13] And I think it would be unethical to keep taking their money.

[00:26:15] That's, that's really the point of saying that, I guess.

[00:26:18] Um, sometimes I say that and people say, I agree, but I just want to say anyway for

[00:26:25] almost like maintenance, like, like going to the gym or something.

[00:26:28] Right.

[00:26:28] Um, which is fine, but I would then probably suggest maybe we don't need to see each other

[00:26:32] every week.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:34] Um, but yeah, I think that's, that's quite a common thing to happen.

[00:26:38] Uh, so we actually had a listener that emailed us and he had a similar question.

[00:26:43] Uh, so he's just trying therapy for the first time.

[00:26:47] Um, his name is Carlo and, uh, he actually signed his name and then saying Winnipeg we're

[00:26:52] trying, uh, therapy for the first time.

[00:26:54] But he, his question was basic and he, he had no idea.

[00:26:58] We didn't know that you're going to be coming to our show.

[00:27:00] It's just this question happened.

[00:27:02] This isn't planned.

[00:27:02] We've gotten it like a couple of weeks ago or so.

[00:27:04] And I was like, Oh, perfect.

[00:27:06] I read it.

[00:27:06] And that's when we started communicating.

[00:27:07] So I'm like, I'm going to save it for the show.

[00:27:09] So, uh, if you're currently in therapy session, how often do you change therapy?

[00:27:13] I recently began a therapy for the first time.

[00:27:16] Still with my first therapist recommended by my EAP and three, three sessions in, and she's

[00:27:22] great.

[00:27:23] I hope I can use all my remaining insurance covered session, uh, sessions with her, but

[00:27:29] sometimes I can't help, uh, the field that I should change if that time comes when she's

[00:27:36] not helpful for me anymore.

[00:27:39] So, um, so says thank you and, uh, keep making these episodes.

[00:27:43] He likes these.

[00:27:44] So, um, yeah.

[00:27:45] So is that okay to, yeah.

[00:27:48] Yeah.

[00:27:48] I, I think, uh, in an ideal world, it would be great if that person could say to their therapist

[00:27:56] in a nice way, I don't think you're helping me anymore.

[00:27:59] What, what, you know, what do we do about that?

[00:28:02] Because it may be that that person has just slightly, the therapist might have just slightly

[00:28:07] misread a situation.

[00:28:08] They think they're doing something helpful that is no longer helpful.

[00:28:11] Yeah.

[00:28:11] Uh, they may be thinking the same thing.

[00:28:13] They may be thinking, you know, something needs a change here.

[00:28:15] Um, and if they're good, I would say they ought to be able to recognize that and change approach

[00:28:24] a little bit, um, or suggest a change of therapist if that's the right thing.

[00:28:29] Um, I think it's kind of unrealistic to expect a client to do that because it can feel quite

[00:28:37] confrontational to say, you know, you're not helping me anymore.

[00:28:40] Yeah.

[00:28:45] Um, uh, so I guess that leaves just changing, but I don't like that option, I suppose.

[00:28:52] I think it is fine to change, but, um, so I've, I've done like personal therapy, uh, with, through

[00:28:58] EAP as well.

[00:28:59] And it was, I believe it was eight sessions that I got that was covered.

[00:29:03] And if I needed more, uh, I would have to contact my EAP work through my work and get

[00:29:09] more sessions.

[00:29:10] I really liked my therapist and I believe she was a student therapist.

[00:29:15] So she was just getting, finishing her schooling and everything, but she was really good.

[00:29:20] And I, I tried Googling her name cause I really felt like after I finished the, we were, we

[00:29:26] said that, yeah, it's great.

[00:29:27] Like, I think you're good.

[00:29:28] And I felt good after the eight sessions.

[00:29:30] So I didn't feel like I needed more sessions, but I was thinking more for the future if I

[00:29:35] need to, well, she already knows my story.

[00:29:37] I want to go back out.

[00:29:38] I tried Googling her name when I couldn't find it.

[00:29:40] I was like, ah, this sucks.

[00:29:42] You know?

[00:29:42] Like I was, I, cause I felt very comfortable with her.

[00:29:45] How important is that?

[00:29:47] Like, do you, when you get a new client, is there sort of a, like, I think people are

[00:29:54] a apprehensive to switch.

[00:29:56] I've, I've actually, I had this conversation with someone like a week ago and not Carlo.

[00:30:00] Um, like they're, they feel apprehensive to switch cause like, ah, I'm ready for sessions

[00:30:05] in or 10 sessions.

[00:30:07] And like, then I'm gonna have to go back and explain everything again to a new person.

[00:30:11] And maybe that's not going to work.

[00:30:13] What, how important is that?

[00:30:16] Or is that something we put, we as non therapists going to see them?

[00:30:20] Um, is that something we put in our heads that just ends up being a hurdle that doesn't

[00:30:23] need to be there?

[00:30:24] Yeah.

[00:30:25] What the, the idea that the therapist knows my story.

[00:30:27] I don't want to have to go through it all again.

[00:30:29] Yeah.

[00:30:30] I guess it depends if it's in the AP situation where you have eight sessions, if you're four

[00:30:34] in and then you're going to have to spend the first of the next four with the new person,

[00:30:40] just giving context.

[00:30:41] Mm hmm.

[00:30:43] Unfortunately that, I mean, that is just a downside of only having eight sessions paid

[00:30:47] for, I guess.

[00:30:48] Um, which is a shame.

[00:30:49] I would say probably is the lesser of two evils to just tolerate the, the flawed relationship

[00:30:55] you have with the existing therapists there.

[00:30:57] Okay.

[00:30:58] Um, just cause just try to get as much out of it as possible.

[00:31:01] Yeah.

[00:31:02] Even though you might not get necessarily the a hundred percent of the help that you need,

[00:31:07] but you'll, you might get 50 or 60%.

[00:31:09] Sure.

[00:31:10] That's, that's kind of what I'm thinking, which isn't great.

[00:31:12] I appreciate, but it's that it's the downside of the costs, I guess, of the insurance and

[00:31:17] things.

[00:31:19] And context, how much does that affect how quickly or how slowly, or how much does it

[00:31:26] actually matter to you, to you to function and do your job well with somebody?

[00:31:34] It very dependent on the approach.

[00:31:36] So there's different schools of therapy, I suppose, different approaches.

[00:31:41] Um, so famous ones are CBT, for example, which is cognitive behavioral therapy.

[00:31:46] That would be like a very minimal context needed.

[00:31:49] It's like, say you want to quit drinking, quit smoking, something like that.

[00:31:54] That would be perfect for that.

[00:31:55] And it's, I don't want to quit either of those.

[00:31:56] So CBT is fucking out.

[00:31:58] I thought you did want to quit drinking.

[00:31:59] I didn't know.

[00:32:00] I didn't want to.

[00:32:01] I did.

[00:32:01] Those are different things.

[00:32:03] And it's limited.

[00:32:04] And it's only for a period of time.

[00:32:05] Okay.

[00:32:06] Okay.

[00:32:07] It's a challenge that we're doing.

[00:32:08] Okay.

[00:32:09] So that would be, that would be, you know, not a great deal of context needed for that

[00:32:13] really.

[00:32:14] They might want to know a little bit, you know, if you said, I don't know, drinking

[00:32:17] makes me feel, uh, it's really helpful to escape.

[00:32:21] They might want to know, well, why is escaping quite so important to you?

[00:32:25] Um, so you might dig a little bit around that, but you could probably, that's why EAP

[00:32:30] often is CBT based, um, and national health service, um, stuff is CBT based a lot of the

[00:32:37] time because it's quite short and sharp.

[00:32:39] I suppose.

[00:32:40] Um, there's other ones like psychodynamic, which a lot of clinical psychologists use.

[00:32:46] It's part of my training and I like it a lot, which is the cliche is like, like your relationship

[00:32:53] with your parents.

[00:32:54] That's that whole thing.

[00:32:56] Okay.

[00:32:56] Yeah.

[00:32:56] Tell me about your mom and everything, all that stuff.

[00:33:00] Um, so that is very, very context based.

[00:33:03] I want to know everything.

[00:33:04] Yeah.

[00:33:05] Um, and I do find that really, really helpful.

[00:33:07] Um, that is, yeah, the, the foundation of all of it, I suppose.

[00:33:11] Okay.

[00:33:12] And is that, that is like kind of your preferred school of teaching or school of whatever you

[00:33:19] want to call it?

[00:33:20] Yeah.

[00:33:21] So I, I was reading a little thing on you and it was, you like more of a conversational

[00:33:27] approach.

[00:33:28] Uh, is that kind of your school of thought on it?

[00:33:31] So that would be my primary approach would be described as person centered, which is yeah,

[00:33:39] very conversational.

[00:33:40] I guess it's kind of halfway between that.

[00:33:42] Okay.

[00:33:42] That's a bit of a shortcut way of saying it, but kind of halfway between psychodynamic

[00:33:47] and CBT is very conversational.

[00:33:50] Um, the whole focuses on authenticity in the client and in the therapist.

[00:33:55] So if you find something funny, that's okay.

[00:33:58] If you want to cry, that's okay.

[00:34:00] It's that thing you described earlier of being very, very nonjudgmental.

[00:34:04] That's one of the real hallmarks of that is, uh, being nonjudgmental.

[00:34:09] Um, I think psychodynamic stuff is great when it comes to kind of theorizing, making those

[00:34:15] slightly more abstract connections.

[00:34:17] Like, okay, well that reminds me of this thing that you know, your, your mom said 20 years

[00:34:22] ago that's stuck with you.

[00:34:24] And now here we are dating someone exactly like your mom.

[00:34:27] And do you know what I mean?

[00:34:28] Yeah.

[00:34:28] Yeah.

[00:34:31] So I think it's helpful as a, as a framework, but I think to actually flesh out the sessions,

[00:34:37] person centered will always suit me more as a person.

[00:34:40] I think.

[00:34:40] Yeah.

[00:34:41] Now I would view person centered and this is just opinion, but like I would view person

[00:34:45] centered as more intimate.

[00:34:49] Yeah.

[00:34:49] Of a connect of a, of, I would just view it as more intimate than like CBT.

[00:34:56] And so with that, I think Tommy, you wanted to talk a little bit about this anyways.

[00:35:01] I'll just kind of go, but, um, that more intimate thing means that like you have to be more intimate

[00:35:09] as well in your questioning and your, in your focus and your thoughts.

[00:35:14] Does that make sense to you?

[00:35:15] Yeah.

[00:35:16] Um, so I guess the, the next phase of that would be like, how do you handle that?

[00:35:21] Not with, with your client, but how do you handle that personally?

[00:35:24] There's a detachment you have to make from like, obviously you can't talk to, I'll just

[00:35:30] say in a funny way, but like you can't talk to 20 sad people in a week and not feel the

[00:35:36] weight of some of that.

[00:35:36] Or you have to learn how to not feel the weight of some of that.

[00:35:39] Yeah.

[00:35:40] I think, I think the learning how to not is the thing there.

[00:35:43] I think the, the learning how to not is really important.

[00:35:46] It's it.

[00:35:48] I think you kind of lean into it to some extent.

[00:35:51] You like really let yourself feel it in the session.

[00:35:54] I mean, you don't want to be in floods of tears for the other person, but it's okay to feel

[00:35:59] really sad about what they're telling them, what they're telling you and to tell them

[00:36:03] that, you know, to me that's sad also.

[00:36:06] Um, I mean, I probably wouldn't make a habit of saying that all the time, but you know,

[00:36:11] if it's something that's really, really heavy, worth acknowledging and feeling it.

[00:36:15] And, you know, giving yourself some time after the session to think, fuck, that was hard.

[00:36:20] That was really sad.

[00:36:21] And then you write your notes and you kind of put some of your feeling into that and think

[00:36:26] about it, like really engage with what's been said and the reality of that.

[00:36:30] Like, wow, this is an actual person who's actually going through that thing.

[00:36:34] And that's, that's really rough, but it's going to be really rough for the next person,

[00:36:40] even if the thing they're dealing with is probably on paper less serious.

[00:36:44] And then also, you know, I, it's quite, it's, it's equally important that I, for example,

[00:36:51] just enjoy my dinner with my girlfriend after work and go to bed and spend time with the cats

[00:36:57] and stuff like, yeah.

[00:36:58] Like you're not going home talking about the, I had six hours work.

[00:37:01] Oh, this client went through this.

[00:37:02] So like, I'm sure that's not, yeah.

[00:37:04] Yeah.

[00:37:04] I'm sure there's a certain amount of leaving it at the door or whatever that, but I guess

[00:37:08] that's, so that's something that you, they teach you in, in school and like how to, how

[00:37:14] to deal with your own emotions.

[00:37:15] And like you mentioned that you kind of write down the notes and you put your heart into

[00:37:21] it and I actually just heard, I forget now who said it, but, uh, talked about journaling.

[00:37:28] Mm.

[00:37:28] And, and I know our previous guest, Glenn mentioned that too, that he started journaling.

[00:37:33] It's like, you can write these things down for yourself because you can really express

[00:37:38] your emotions, your feelings, whether you're angry, happy, sad, doesn't matter.

[00:37:42] And that, I guess that's, that's a form of like, you're, you're releasing the, the, the,

[00:37:49] maybe negativity or emotions, your feelings I'm putting on paper.

[00:37:53] So that, that's pretty cool.

[00:37:54] I, I, I've never tried journaling cause I don't know.

[00:37:58] I, I, I think I feel kind of a little bit stupid of doing that, you know, but I think

[00:38:03] I'm, you are a little bit stupid.

[00:38:04] Oh, that's, that's, that's a different show that we're going to talk about.

[00:38:08] But, uh, yeah, no, I, I've, I'm always like, I've been hearing more and more now and, and

[00:38:14] I, I'm intrigued more to actually try that and really let my feelings out.

[00:38:21] Cause I mean, I, I'm a very open person.

[00:38:22] I have no problem talking about my sadness at the moment or whatever.

[00:38:27] We do it.

[00:38:27] We do it here.

[00:38:29] Yeah.

[00:38:34] Yeah.

[00:38:34] Yeah.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:35] Way easier.

[00:38:36] Yeah.

[00:38:36] Well, I think part of it is, is we feel comfortable with the mics on like you, you've, you've been

[00:38:44] on the mic even before that.

[00:38:45] Like, yeah.

[00:38:46] So you've had that comfort level.

[00:38:48] And, uh, also I think we're, it's almost like it's our job to, to be vulnerable and to

[00:38:54] express our feelings on here too.

[00:38:56] True.

[00:38:57] And I think for me, there's a, there, even though people were, we bear ourselves or we

[00:39:02] say anything we want, there is a certain level of anonymity to what we do.

[00:39:06] Yeah.

[00:39:06] Even though my face is on the screen and my real name's being used, which I previously

[00:39:10] didn't use in my last podcast adventure.

[00:39:13] And for good reason.

[00:39:14] Um, but like there is a sense of anonymity where like, like I said to you before, and

[00:39:19] I can't remember if we were on or off mics, but like the therapist I went to, he didn't

[00:39:23] fucking know me.

[00:39:24] He didn't know anything about me.

[00:39:25] Yeah.

[00:39:25] I didn't know.

[00:39:26] I knew, I knew even less about him.

[00:39:28] I knew nothing about him actually.

[00:39:29] I didn't even ask.

[00:39:30] Do people ask?

[00:39:32] Uh, 50, 50.

[00:39:34] Yeah.

[00:39:34] Some people really actively don't want to know.

[00:39:36] Like you said, it's important that they don't know anything about you.

[00:39:39] Yeah.

[00:39:39] I've, some people have said things along the lines of kind of for this to work.

[00:39:45] I feel I need to know that you're not like just a robot or something.

[00:39:49] Yeah.

[00:39:49] They want, they want to feel like they're talking to a human.

[00:39:51] Yeah.

[00:39:52] Yeah.

[00:39:53] Yeah.

[00:39:53] Okay.

[00:39:54] I liked that he didn't, I didn't know shit about the guy.

[00:39:57] He didn't have any fucking pictures on his desk.

[00:39:59] Nothing.

[00:39:59] It was like, it was awesome.

[00:40:01] Yeah.

[00:40:01] It was just Dr. Bruce and this is where he sits.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:05] No.

[00:40:06] And it's interesting cause like I've done, uh, we've done, uh, marriage counseling with

[00:40:11] my wife and I've also done therapy prior to that when our relationship was not the strongest.

[00:40:20] And I, I know, I remember like talking to a therapist and I was just like, you know,

[00:40:25] kind of bitching about my wife maybe, you know, a little more than, you know, maybe I made

[00:40:31] myself look a little bit better in her eyes.

[00:40:33] And it's like, I'm only really giving one side of the story if I'm complaining about

[00:40:37] the relationship because there's always, well, there's three sides to the story.

[00:40:40] Right.

[00:40:41] I have a comment about that.

[00:40:42] Keep going.

[00:40:43] And so, yeah, I just like, is that something that you guys pick up on?

[00:40:47] We're like, okay, well I hear you, but you're full of shit.

[00:40:51] Like you might not say it, but like, you know, like I might be like, well, you know, she really

[00:40:57] doesn't let me do this or that or that.

[00:40:59] But meanwhile I'm a piece of shit and I'm like not being a good husband necessarily and

[00:41:03] just put one a party all the time, for example, you know, like, like do you guys, I would guess

[00:41:07] they have pretty high levels of discernment.

[00:41:11] I, so I would, I think it's definitely proven to me that I would, there's no such thing as

[00:41:17] these like human lie detector things.

[00:41:19] Yeah.

[00:41:20] Um, there have been things people have told me that have really surprised me where it's

[00:41:24] like for the last year, this thing I've been saying, it hasn't actually been like that.

[00:41:29] It's been like this.

[00:41:30] Oh, okay.

[00:41:31] And that's like, well shit, I really, really, really didn't think that was going to be the

[00:41:35] case.

[00:41:36] Okay.

[00:41:36] Just part of someone's, maybe it's part of someone's process.

[00:41:38] Like you have to be willing to share.

[00:41:40] Yeah.

[00:41:41] Um, yeah, I see it as a, probably a bad coping strategy for the last year, but then great

[00:41:48] that they're addressing that right now.

[00:41:50] Oh, I got a laundry list of those.

[00:41:53] Um, I think I could probably, I probably do if I'm being completely truthful and not professional,

[00:42:02] occasionally think this person is saying this when, when I know they're out part in or way

[00:42:08] whatever it might be.

[00:42:09] Yeah.

[00:42:09] And that, that obviously their wife's going to be pissed off at that or whatever it is.

[00:42:13] Yeah.

[00:42:14] Now what's your role in that?

[00:42:16] What do you view your role in receiving that information as being that person's therapist?

[00:42:22] Yeah.

[00:42:23] Yeah.

[00:42:23] There's different schools of thought, I guess.

[00:42:24] There's, there's definitely a right time to challenge and a right time to just empathize

[00:42:29] and just think, well, this guy thinks he's hard done by right now.

[00:42:35] He's not, but he thinks he is and that matters.

[00:42:38] And if I'm making that choice, it really does matter.

[00:42:41] It's not me thinking, okay, pretend this matters for the, for the, because I'm supposed

[00:42:45] to, if I, if that choice is made, it's because it's the right thing to do.

[00:42:49] And, or I think it is.

[00:42:51] And so I really mean it, you know, I don't sort of fake the empathy.

[00:42:54] I think probably when I challenge is when I feel like I can't hold it in anymore.

[00:43:00] And that, that is how they usually look.

[00:43:03] There's a moment of like, look, come on.

[00:43:04] Like we have to talk about this.

[00:43:07] Is that how, when you've done that, taken that jump, and I'm sure that's a sort of regular

[00:43:12] thing.

[00:43:12] You try and decide when to take that jump.

[00:43:14] Is it often received better and, or received well?

[00:43:18] And does it produce a positive result?

[00:43:21] The strength of the relationship is really important there.

[00:43:24] If that's going back to your example earlier, that the EAP that maybe isn't going so well,

[00:43:29] if that's a weak relationship and then session seven of eight, I try to take a risk like

[00:43:35] that, it's just like another reason to be like, ah, fuck this guy.

[00:43:39] Yeah.

[00:43:40] Um, but if you've been working together for a good amount of time, you trust that this

[00:43:44] person has your, your wellness at heart.

[00:43:49] I think it goes well.

[00:43:52] Okay.

[00:43:52] I can see that.

[00:43:53] I feel like, um, being a therapist is almost like, uh, statistics in math.

[00:44:00] It's like, well, if this is the case, then this could be the, or you could use this.

[00:44:05] Or maybe it could be this way, you know?

[00:44:07] Like there's, that's a good, I don't think.

[00:44:09] I don't think.

[00:44:09] Cause like how formulaic is it?

[00:44:11] First of all, I hate statistics.

[00:44:12] Right.

[00:44:13] And like, I never understood.

[00:44:14] I'm like, what do you mean?

[00:44:15] Like, and, and so I, it's, it's one of those things.

[00:44:18] Like you really need to pick up on like what they say, how, how they behave, how they

[00:44:23] react to certain things.

[00:44:24] And then, then you kind of generate your answer and, or like your suggestions.

[00:44:29] Right.

[00:44:29] To cause it, it's not like you're, uh, being the, uh, it behind the phone.

[00:44:34] Like, oh, if this is the issue, then this is the answer.

[00:44:38] You know, you don't go by book.

[00:44:39] Or is it?

[00:44:40] Or is it?

[00:44:41] I wanted to know.

[00:44:42] So I want to talk about that.

[00:44:43] We're going to take a five minute break.

[00:44:45] Let's take a break.

[00:44:45] I want to talk about that a little bit.

[00:44:47] But I want to dig into that because I don't know, I'm obsessed with trying to figure out

[00:44:51] like, can you formulaically approach?

[00:44:54] Is there a formulaic approach that works?

[00:44:56] You better not use that on me.

[00:44:58] And I want to learn how to do it so I can fucking stop.

[00:45:01] No, I, I just want to, I want to see how, I want to talk about how like potentially robotic

[00:45:07] it can be or can become.

[00:45:09] And maybe the difference between, maybe there's differences between a good therapist and a

[00:45:14] bad one, just based on their level of empathy or their level of, uh, robotic thought towards

[00:45:20] situations.

[00:45:21] And then I'll, I got lots of things I want to talk about.

[00:45:23] We'll take a five minute break.

[00:45:25] Yeah, we'll run some ads.

[00:45:27] People appreciate the fact that you're genuine and authentic.

[00:45:30] Just be yourself.

[00:45:31] Like I complimented, uh, Justin Lamuda from rainy day forge.

[00:45:35] He put his YouTube video out and I've seen every other video he's done, but this one was

[00:45:41] different and I reached out to him.

[00:45:43] And then when he answered, he said that, uh, he was just being himself.

[00:45:48] Guys, listen up.

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[00:46:05] Get yours today at rainy day forge.ca.

[00:46:07] It's captivating.

[00:46:09] Why?

[00:46:09] Because he's being himself.

[00:46:12] There we go.

[00:46:14] Okay.

[00:46:14] So when we left, I had all these questions and now I hope I remember most of what I was

[00:46:17] thinking about.

[00:46:19] Yeah.

[00:46:20] When you go to school and you learn about this, there must be some level of, of deductive

[00:46:27] reasoning or formulaic thought that you use to figure out what to say or how to approach

[00:46:32] somebody or how to address a concern they have or a thought they've had or something

[00:46:36] they've expressed to you.

[00:46:39] I feel like people naturally have, whether they're conscious of it or not, have like a

[00:46:43] bullshit meter where like if you're too robotic, I don't know if people would respond to that

[00:46:49] or are you not going to, and maybe I shouldn't make assumptions actually.

[00:46:52] I'm asking a question, but maybe comment a little bit about that.

[00:46:56] I'm sure you've seen other therapists who, how they act, how they behave, how they, maybe

[00:47:03] you've been to therapy.

[00:47:04] I don't know.

[00:47:04] Have you been to therapy?

[00:47:05] Is that part of something for you?

[00:47:08] Um, how much of that is important and matters and how much of it can you approach from a formulaic

[00:47:16] sense and how much of it has to be like sort of a taught natural instinct in being able to

[00:47:22] empathetic and being understanding and giving good advice or feedback?

[00:47:27] Maybe feedback's better than advice.

[00:47:29] I think I wouldn't say it is.

[00:47:33] There is particular formula in terms of like how to respond if a person brings a certain

[00:47:38] thing or how to approach a specific issue like quitting drinking or something like that

[00:47:44] or, you know, difficult relationship or something like that.

[00:47:47] I wouldn't say there is a formula to that.

[00:47:50] I think that there are, there's quite a cynical approach to teaching empathy probably

[00:47:56] where, you know, this is how you can show that you are empathizing with someone.

[00:48:03] Um, and I probably do use that.

[00:48:05] Um, and I try to be quite open about that as well.

[00:48:08] It's if I stumble and fuck things up or I, or I'm about to say something that I know is going

[00:48:14] to come across quite unempathic.

[00:48:16] I will say, you know, this is, I'm suspending the bit where I'm trying really hard to empathize

[00:48:20] to just say this one thing.

[00:48:22] Um, but that in itself is kind of a, an authentic act, I suppose, which is better than not.

[00:48:28] Yeah.

[00:48:28] At least.

[00:48:29] Um, so there's things like that, which probably are quite consciously taught and consciously

[00:48:34] held in mind, whoever you're working with.

[00:48:37] Um, and you might change those things depending on, like you said earlier, how you see the other

[00:48:42] person responds to certain feedback or whatever it is.

[00:48:46] Um, certainly for the bullshit meter, I think people can tell if you're not interested a hundred

[00:48:53] percent and anytime someone's ever come to me and they've said the last person I worked

[00:48:59] with was terrible.

[00:49:01] I always ask a bit more about that and it, it tends to boil down to like, I just didn't

[00:49:05] really, you know, felt like they just weren't interested.

[00:49:08] They just went into it.

[00:49:09] They didn't care.

[00:49:10] And I've had that as, as well.

[00:49:12] I have a therapist currently and I, I changed to this one because I felt like the last one

[00:49:18] was just, I don't know, reading off a sheet or something.

[00:49:21] Yeah.

[00:49:21] Just didn't really, I don't know.

[00:49:23] They were just, I felt like they were just trying to earn their money that day.

[00:49:26] And I don't want that.

[00:49:28] I guess you, yeah, I guess like it's no different than any other.

[00:49:31] It's still a job and a task you have to do that is part of your career.

[00:49:36] And I guess like if you have a bad day, that's a whole nother set of things you have to push

[00:49:42] behind or work through to, you can't just like phone it in.

[00:49:45] Yeah.

[00:49:45] Or you don't want to.

[00:49:47] Maybe, maybe you don't want to as, or you do want to, I don't know, everybody like,

[00:49:51] sometimes you go to work, you're like, I'm having a shit day.

[00:49:53] Fuck this day.

[00:49:53] I'm just going to phone it in today.

[00:49:55] And like, just squeak by, I guess in that's no different in your line of work where like

[00:50:02] someone would have those days.

[00:50:04] Yeah.

[00:50:05] Hard days are a really hard thing to manage.

[00:50:08] I've, I find at this job more than other jobs I've had in the past.

[00:50:12] Um, little things like, like this move, for example, moving apartments or, you know, my

[00:50:18] cat was at the vet a few months ago for minor stuff.

[00:50:22] Suddenly it's suddenly your mind is occupied with something else.

[00:50:24] And that's just bad.

[00:50:26] Like that's, it just can't be.

[00:50:28] And so what do you do with that?

[00:50:30] And I think it goes back to that journaling idea of, of kind of being mindful of your own thoughts and feelings.

[00:50:36] And what am I going through right now?

[00:50:38] Why am I distracted?

[00:50:39] And sometimes, unfortunately that might be coming to the end of a session and think that I had, I didn't do a good job there.

[00:50:47] I hope I got away with that one because that wasn't really my best work.

[00:50:50] And I kind of owed my best work to people.

[00:50:53] Okay.

[00:50:53] And you would reflect on that.

[00:50:55] You would reflect on that after the session or would you ever actually have a moment in the session where you just need like, Hey, you know what?

[00:51:02] That, that sucked.

[00:51:04] Let me try again.

[00:51:05] I probably would.

[00:51:06] Yeah.

[00:51:06] Is there a level of honesty you would actually offer in that situation depending on the client?

[00:51:10] Maybe I think, yeah, depending on the client is, is a big asterisk there.

[00:51:14] Yeah.

[00:51:15] I guess we guys develop relationships.

[00:51:17] Like every, every, I think every therapist develops a relationship with their client, right?

[00:51:22] It might be a little bit closer.

[00:51:25] It might be just, you know, yeah, here's the answers.

[00:51:28] Try this.

[00:51:30] How it feels.

[00:51:31] Right.

[00:51:31] So I guess, I guess you would, would, would you, would you be like, just kind of would you tell them actually during the session?

[00:51:41] Like, Hey, you know what?

[00:51:42] I need five minutes.

[00:51:44] Oh, I think I would.

[00:51:45] There was my thoughts or whatever.

[00:51:48] Right.

[00:51:48] Like if it's, let's say you're dealing with something major.

[00:51:52] Yeah.

[00:51:52] You still have a job to do, but you, you don't want to, you know, fuck up that person even more than they are.

[00:51:59] Let's say, you know, or just because you're having a bad day.

[00:52:02] I think if there was something that big.

[00:52:04] So we had a bereavement in the family recently, for example, and I knew that I just had to cancel everything for a little while because what are you going to do?

[00:52:15] You know, it's, it's, and so I think you can usually predict that kind of thing.

[00:52:20] If I'd have found that out, like halfway through a day.

[00:52:24] Yeah.

[00:52:25] I just, I still would have canceled the remaining of the day.

[00:52:27] Just would have said it was an emergency.

[00:52:29] Well, and I would, I would guess that's like, just that's the responsible thing to do.

[00:52:33] Yeah.

[00:52:33] Yeah.

[00:52:33] With, when you're dealing with people's, with people.

[00:52:37] Yeah.

[00:52:37] You're not selling a, something to somebody and you can just push it down for the day and just like, yeah, I got to, I'll fill out some reports and just whatever.

[00:52:45] Like your, your line of work requires, I would imagine requires a different level of, uh, of mental stability and being in a, in the right place.

[00:52:55] It's not a task based job.

[00:52:58] Yeah.

[00:52:58] Yeah.

[00:52:59] You definitely have to be aware of what you're feeling.

[00:53:01] I don't think you have to be okay, but I think you definitely have to know when you're not and how to handle that and how to sit with that and not let it affect the next six hours of your day or whatever it is.

[00:53:12] Yeah.

[00:53:13] So I have a thought and I said this to someone completely opinion based.

[00:53:18] This is my opinion.

[00:53:19] I'm going to establish that real quick.

[00:53:21] Yeah.

[00:53:22] Something's coming.

[00:53:23] My friend, no, but my, my friend was asking me about therapy and she, uh, she's tried a few avenues.

[00:53:31] She's never really found someone that she felt good about.

[00:53:37] And she talked a lot about, yeah, I was seeing this guy.

[00:53:39] I was seeing this guy and I kind of just blurted out.

[00:53:41] She's a very close friend.

[00:53:42] I kind of just blurted out like, well, I don't think women should see male therapists and I don't think males should see women therapists.

[00:53:48] Okay.

[00:53:49] That's my opinion.

[00:53:51] Yeah.

[00:53:51] And maybe that is not founded in anything other than my own emotions and feelings.

[00:53:55] Yeah.

[00:53:57] I do feel that though.

[00:53:59] So what do you think about that?

[00:54:04] He was going to pick me apart.

[00:54:06] Yeah.

[00:54:07] Yeah.

[00:54:07] Here's why you feel it.

[00:54:08] Yeah.

[00:54:08] Cause your mom.

[00:54:13] Um, I guess.

[00:54:14] Yeah.

[00:54:14] I mean, I'm sort of, it's been beaten and trained out with me to never ask why that's, that scene is like the worst thing to ask someone is, is just like, why do you feel that?

[00:54:25] Okay.

[00:54:25] Okay.

[00:54:25] But like you said earlier, I'm not here to just be a therapist.

[00:54:28] So I know you're here as a person.

[00:54:30] So you can ask me why.

[00:54:32] So I, yeah, I guess I want to know why.

[00:54:33] I think for me, it's that men feel certain things a certain way, I believe.

[00:54:40] And I think that is different than the way women feel and experience things as well.

[00:54:44] I think we do it uniquely in our own facets and that could be, maybe there's something scientific behind that.

[00:54:51] I would assume there is, um, or hormonal or whatever that is.

[00:54:55] Like, I feel like I feel things and experience life in a way that is unique to, there are certain aspects of it that are unique to men.

[00:55:06] And, and, and women the same on their side.

[00:55:08] I'm not saying, yeah, no, no, this is a men's podcast.

[00:55:11] Commenting in those terms, but I do feel that.

[00:55:14] And I feel like personally, I wouldn't want a, I wouldn't want a female therapist.

[00:55:22] Mm hmm.

[00:55:23] Okay.

[00:55:23] Yeah.

[00:55:23] That makes sense.

[00:55:24] I guess I don't feel as strongly about the, the differences between the way men feel things and the way women feel things.

[00:55:34] But I guess I respect somebody else who does feel that that's really important in the same way that some people want to see a Christian therapist or a black therapist or whatever it might be.

[00:55:48] Yeah.

[00:55:48] Because they feel like only that person will be able to empathize truly or be able to kind of.

[00:55:55] But is that like, take the fact that that matters to me out and just in maybe a generalization is not an effective response, but like you've learned, you've been to school, you've taught.

[00:56:08] Like, would, would you, I maybe not agree or disagree, but what would you think about like, would there be some validity in that statement that I made?

[00:56:18] I say it's kind of an impossible question because of the premise of taking the fact that it matters to you out.

[00:56:24] Yes.

[00:56:25] Because, because that's the only reason it's important there.

[00:56:28] Yeah.

[00:56:28] So I would say that someone who's trained and is, and is good at their job should be able to empathize with anyone in front of them.

[00:56:36] I've, I've always maintained that if I could, I would work with the people who have, who are in prisons and things like that.

[00:56:43] That's, that's a goal that I want to do because I know I can remain empathic and nonjudgmental even when someone's done something that I hate.

[00:56:52] Mm hmm.

[00:56:53] And I think that extends to, to, to all sorts of other things like being a woman or I'm heterosexual.

[00:57:00] I feel like I can empathize with gay people because I think part of empathy is accepting that, no, I don't know what you've gone through, you know, and I can't.

[00:57:09] So, so explain, help me, you know, help me understand that as best I can.

[00:57:15] I think for some people that's, that's just kind of an unnecessary hurdle.

[00:57:21] It sounds like it's an unnecessary hurdle for you.

[00:57:23] So like, yeah, but why bother, you know, skip the bit where it's like, no, I don't know what it's like to be a man.

[00:57:28] Just, just hire a man.

[00:57:29] Like, yeah, I think that's fine.

[00:57:31] Yeah.

[00:57:32] That's interesting.

[00:57:33] Cause like I, you know how I mentioned, I have now a little more time at work and my mind started going.

[00:57:39] And I was like, okay, how can I do to kind of work on my mental health at work?

[00:57:45] And what, what can I do to create something for everyone else to improve on their mental health?

[00:57:51] And, uh, one of the questions that popped in my head is we do have a woman's advocate and the, the, the workplace and the union of the workplace provides certain trainings for them.

[00:58:05] So I'm like, Hmm, I'm going to look into if there's anything for men.

[00:58:10] And I don't think, I don't think there is, but I think there should be because I believe in kind of what you said that it's, you know, a woman might be more comfortable talking to a woman, um, advocate.

[00:58:25] A man would, might feel a little more comfortable talking to a man's or men's advocate.

[00:58:34] I would almost think that most men would prefer to talk to a women's, a woman.

[00:58:40] It depends.

[00:58:41] Maybe out of that, like, nurturing some, I don't know.

[00:58:45] And like, I'm more likely to tell you to fuck off.

[00:58:48] Yeah.

[00:58:49] Or yeah.

[00:58:50] Yeah.

[00:58:50] You know what I mean?

[00:58:51] Yeah.

[00:58:52] But like, let's say for example, you're dealing with ED and you know, like, is it going to be easier to open up to somebody that works with you and is a man and you're like, Oh crap, I don't want to tell him that I'm dealing with this, but I need to get it out, you know, uh, to some, I need to disclose it to someone.

[00:59:15] But now do you want to disclose that to a woman?

[00:59:19] Right.

[00:59:19] Like which one's better?

[00:59:22] Right.

[00:59:23] Like, yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know if there is an answer.

[00:59:25] I don't think.

[00:59:26] Yeah.

[00:59:26] But that's why I was just like, I want to have that option available to our workers.

[00:59:31] That way they can kind of make that decision.

[00:59:33] Like, cause now it's just, we only have a woman's advocate that a man can also go see her and, and get some information or whatever.

[00:59:41] But when kind of going back to what you said to me, like it's an unnecessary hurdle.

[00:59:47] Just go see a man.

[00:59:48] If you want to see a man, go see a man.

[00:59:50] If you want to see a, if you want to see a therapist, who's a black person, then go see a black person.

[00:59:55] Like I don't, I guess my hope is that whatever anyone's preference would be that they can find access to that.

[01:00:02] You were hoping for an answer and then he just kind of threw it back at you.

[01:00:05] That's what he does.

[01:00:06] Yeah.

[01:00:08] That's amazing though.

[01:00:09] I guess that would actually lead me.

[01:00:11] So another thing.

[01:00:13] And, um, what is like, we find so much, I find we, I find so much solace in conversations and, uh, looking to and confiding in friends.

[01:00:28] Okay.

[01:00:29] Maybe talk a little bit, cause I think we have a lot of listeners that do the same.

[01:00:33] I think people tend to do that.

[01:00:35] I hope they have friends that they can talk to or trusted people they can confide in.

[01:00:41] Maybe comment a little about the difference between seeing a therapist and confiding in a friend.

[01:00:46] Hmm.

[01:00:46] So I would say, uh, agenda is the first thing that comes to mind is that one of the foundations of the training is to never have an agenda.

[01:00:57] Um, even if the agenda is objectively to improve that person's wellbeing, you know, you want to work generally for the benefit of people, which I, is always a phrase I don't like because it's so subjective.

[01:01:09] But I think friends and family will always hopefully want the best for you.

[01:01:16] Sometimes maybe not, I guess, but like they'll always want something.

[01:01:18] They'll always have an idea about what is the right way to approach this thing that is happening for you or this thing that you're feeling.

[01:01:26] And they'll kind of all by necessity, they will all be wrong because they're not you.

[01:01:30] They're not in your head.

[01:01:31] And, and there is probably no objective right answer.

[01:01:35] If occasionally someone gives really great advice, that's great, but that's just luck, you know, which, which is good, but it is nothing more than that.

[01:01:43] And I think the complete lack of advice that a good therapist will give giving you space, hopefully to find your own way through that would be the best chance at having a sustainable long term direction going forward, I guess.

[01:02:00] Because it will be a more authentic and organic way forward.

[01:02:04] Yeah. Okay. That's a great way to answer that. Have you answered that question before?

[01:02:09] It came up a lot in college, I guess.

[01:02:14] Which I should say, I don't think that means that a therapist is better than family and friends.

[01:02:20] In fact, I probably think the opposite, because I think a wide network is better than just like a small but deep one.

[01:02:26] Sure. I would, yeah, I would think both are important.

[01:02:29] Like there is something different.

[01:02:31] I think, yeah, both have their place.

[01:02:31] I would.

[01:02:32] There is something different you'll get, maybe some, you'll have a different experience emotionally with those who know you intimately and love you.

[01:02:39] And there's a, there's a part of that that matters.

[01:02:44] And maybe I would view it the same as there's a part of going to see someone who doesn't know you and you don't have this, this reciprocal intimate relationship with or history or like my, my mom, like I've known my mom my whole life.

[01:02:58] She gave birth to me.

[01:02:58] And well, she'll give me, you're right.

[01:03:00] She'll give me different answers than you would if I was having a session with you.

[01:03:05] I think both are important.

[01:03:06] Yeah.

[01:03:07] I would view them as both valuable.

[01:03:08] Maybe that may be valuable.

[01:03:09] I can't, I can't be very honest with my family.

[01:03:13] Like not with, I'm very honest with my wife, but like my parents, my in-laws, my, my brother, I don't talk to him very often, but because we don't see each other very often.

[01:03:25] And so I try not to lay that on him.

[01:03:28] Um, and yeah, I just don't feel comfortable like opening up to my family.

[01:03:33] What issues.

[01:03:35] Anytime it's someone you, I know.

[01:03:37] I feel judged.

[01:03:38] You're always choosing what you're going to say and not say.

[01:03:41] Yeah.

[01:03:42] Hmm.

[01:03:42] Maybe with a therapist, you don't.

[01:03:44] I don't.

[01:03:45] Yeah.

[01:03:45] Or you shouldn't.

[01:03:46] Maybe shouldn't is better.

[01:03:48] I was very comfortable speaking very openly.

[01:03:52] Hmm.

[01:03:52] My therapist.

[01:03:53] Mm hmm.

[01:03:53] Me too.

[01:03:54] Yeah.

[01:03:55] Yeah, I was too.

[01:03:56] Yeah.

[01:03:57] Cause I didn't know.

[01:03:58] I didn't hold back and I didn't feel like there's any judgment coming towards me, you know, if I say this.

[01:04:06] Mm hmm.

[01:04:06] So, whereas like, oh, opening up to my mom or dad.

[01:04:11] We've talked about your mom a few times.

[01:04:12] Yeah.

[01:04:12] Oh my God.

[01:04:13] Yeah.

[01:04:13] It's like daggers flying my way and my dad's like, you should maybe talk to him about your

[01:04:18] mom.

[01:04:18] Yeah.

[01:04:19] My dad would be like, why the fuck are you seeing a therapist?

[01:04:23] What's wrong with you?

[01:04:23] You know, like, well, many things like you're stupid.

[01:04:27] You know, like he's very old school and yeah.

[01:04:29] Um, but yeah, no, it's, it's, it's definitely like I, I, I tell, uh, uh, our coworkers and,

[01:04:37] and people that have any issues going on.

[01:04:40] And I always tell him like, dude, like make that phone call.

[01:04:43] It's so important that you just go talk to somebody.

[01:04:47] You don't feel right.

[01:04:49] Go to the next person, you know, do a little research.

[01:04:51] I can help you.

[01:04:53] I actually helped, uh, one of, one of my coworkers sign up to like a little, it was

[01:04:57] like a session on how to pick a proper therapist.

[01:05:01] Great.

[01:05:02] And I forget now what the website is, but, uh, I'm sure I could dig it out, but it

[01:05:06] was, it was amazing.

[01:05:06] It was like a two hour session where like, Hey, like this is why therapy is good.

[01:05:11] And like who you should choose.

[01:05:13] Cause they've never done therapy and, and guy was pretty messed up.

[01:05:18] Uh, and, and he's doing great.

[01:05:20] Now I see, I saw him smiling at work first time in a very long time.

[01:05:24] So that's good.

[01:05:25] No, that's good.

[01:05:26] What does therapy do for you?

[01:05:28] Oh, go to therapy.

[01:05:30] Yeah.

[01:05:30] So not as you're not the therapist right now.

[01:05:32] You're the guest on the podcast.

[01:05:34] You're Daniel.

[01:05:36] So what do I get as a client?

[01:05:38] Why do you go?

[01:05:39] And, and what, what has it done for you?

[01:05:41] What does it continue?

[01:05:42] Like you talked about how it did lots for you in your youth.

[01:05:45] Yeah.

[01:05:46] We didn't unpack any of that, which is fine.

[01:05:48] Um, but like you still go, you obviously it, you've chosen it as your career.

[01:05:53] So you do see it as a valuable exercise or a valuable part of life.

[01:05:57] What, what keeps you going and why?

[01:06:01] So I guess this, this recent time.

[01:06:03] So I hadn't seen someone in a few years and I started having panic attacks in the summer for the first time.

[01:06:13] And it was, it was, I mean, I, I understand now with the help of therapy, it was like, there's this long list of like really obvious things.

[01:06:23] Like one of my pets nearly died.

[01:06:25] Uh, there was this visa immigration stuff going on, which is sorted now, but that was really stressful.

[01:06:31] There was, uh, money.

[01:06:33] There was a new job.

[01:06:36] There was, uh, a family member who was ill, who is the one that now passed away.

[01:06:41] Like things were piling up.

[01:06:44] Um, and then at the end of the day, you're just a human being.

[01:06:47] Yeah.

[01:06:47] Yeah.

[01:06:48] Even though you're, you know, maybe the tools at the time when you're feeling overwhelmed, like somebody who's telling you those things.

[01:06:55] Yeah.

[01:06:55] Yeah.

[01:06:56] I think I didn't know that I was going back to what I said earlier about like, it's important to be mindful of what you're feeling and recognize that.

[01:07:05] I think I just didn't know that I was stressed about those things.

[01:07:08] Yeah.

[01:07:08] I think I thought, okay, he's unwell.

[01:07:10] That's okay.

[01:07:11] My cat's going to die.

[01:07:13] We'll deal with that when it happens.

[01:07:15] But actually I was, it was just all building up and feeling horrible.

[01:07:18] Um, and then, yeah, it was, it was, it was just really helpful to talk to someone about it.

[01:07:25] Um, I had one unhelpful person who I just moved on from and then someone who just kind of understood.

[01:07:33] They were just like, well, yeah, you're stressed.

[01:07:36] So you're, so you're behaving like a stressed person.

[01:07:38] You're anxious.

[01:07:39] So you're having anxiety attacks.

[01:07:40] Yeah.

[01:07:41] And so now, so anxiety, you talked about anxiety, panic attacks.

[01:07:47] Um, at what point, I think a lot of people, you hear those terms very often.

[01:07:54] Uh, like you hear panic attacks, you hear more about anxiety and depression more now than I've ever heard about it in my whole life up till today.

[01:08:03] Like it's growing.

[01:08:05] And I think it's a growing awareness.

[01:08:06] I think it's, um, I think a lot of people have probably struggled with those things for years and years and years of their lives and never just never been, never unpacked.

[01:08:16] It's never been diagnosed or whatever.

[01:08:19] At what point would you, is that part of your interactions with people where you talked about the different schools of therapists?

[01:08:29] Mm-hmm .

[01:08:30] There's psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists.

[01:08:34] Mm-hmm .

[01:08:35] Is there a point to where you would recommend or, or forward them on to a psychiatrist where it's like, this isn't about, part of this is, needs to become a medical concern?

[01:08:47] Yeah.

[01:08:48] Yeah.

[01:08:48] So meds, I'm talking sort of somewhat about the combination of medications and therapy, which is different than just therapy.

[01:08:55] Yes.

[01:08:56] Yeah.

[01:08:56] That, that comes up fairly commonly.

[01:08:59] It's, uh, people quite often, I think don't realize either that they're seeing the world in a way that is completely different to everyone else.

[01:09:08] So for example, someone who's autistic, but undiagnosed and they meet you.

[01:09:13] And I have a lot of experience, personal and professional with autism.

[01:09:16] And it's like, really this never crossed your mind that no one else is thinking this way or, you know, nine out of 10 people I'm thinking this way.

[01:09:23] Mm-hmm .

[01:09:23] And that might actually be really helpful if you explore that.

[01:09:26] So go off and do that with someone else if you want to.

[01:09:29] Uh, if you want to ignore it, that's fine, but I can't not say it.

[01:09:33] Um, and then on the more sort of medication side, yeah.

[01:09:37] If someone's so depressed that they're, you know, like catatonic, they're, they're in bed all day, they're missing sessions, they're right on the edge of suicide.

[01:09:47] Please see your family doctor or a psychiatrist.

[01:09:51] Mm-hmm .

[01:09:51] Feel free to still see me if you want, but you have to see other people as well.

[01:09:56] Yeah.

[01:09:56] This isn't, this isn't a cure, you know.

[01:10:00] Okay.

[01:10:01] Yeah.

[01:10:01] That makes sense to me.

[01:10:03] Yeah.

[01:10:04] I always, I always refer back to my, a really good friend of mine who I lived with after he came out of the hospital after a suicide attempt.

[01:10:12] Mm-hmm .

[01:10:12] Thankfully a failed one cause he sucks at that.

[01:10:17] Um, and he, he, we learned a lot together and that kind of brought me to, uh, this awareness of mental health stuff, uh, living with him, going through that experience kind of alongside him.

[01:10:30] He said, we talked about Medicaid cause he was on a lot of medications.

[01:10:34] He still takes quite a few and, and I believe needs them to function or needs them to be the person that he actually is without the sickness.

[01:10:44] And he is, he said to me one time, he said, the medications, I take medications because they clear my mind enough that I can go to therapy and actually do something about how I feel.

[01:10:57] Mm-hmm .

[01:10:58] That, that, and I've always, that stuck with me.

[01:11:01] The first time he said that to me, that was burned in my brain because I didn't know anything about it.

[01:11:06] I didn't know, I was going through this experience about, with like severe true depression.

[01:11:11] Yeah.

[01:11:11] You're not sad, you're, this is depression.

[01:11:13] This is something misfiring.

[01:11:16] Something's not working.

[01:11:17] Mm-hmm .

[01:11:17] And that was kind of the way he framed it for me.

[01:11:19] And that made a lot of sense to me.

[01:11:21] Does that make sense to you?

[01:11:22] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:11:22] Like one feeds into the other and you're, you're adding to your support network, I guess.

[01:11:27] Mm-hmm .

[01:11:28] Yeah, it's one more tool in the belt.

[01:11:31] Well, yeah.

[01:11:35] So, yeah.

[01:11:36] Yeah.

[01:11:36] Yeah.

[01:11:37] It was making him receptive.

[01:11:38] Yeah.

[01:11:39] Yeah.

[01:11:39] It put him in a place where he could be receptive to unpack the things that needed to be in conjunction

[01:11:45] to actually improve his health.

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:48] I know, I know, I know, I know when I went through depression, my doctor prescribed me some really light, light meds.

[01:11:56] But I was very hesitant to take them because I still lived in a little bit of denial because I never believed in, in therapy or sorry, in depression.

[01:12:09] And, you know, when it really hit me and I was just like, well, do I really need to take these meds?

[01:12:15] And, and I only took them for a month, I believe.

[01:12:19] And what a difference.

[01:12:22] Just, just, it, it helped, helped me actually, yeah.

[01:12:25] I think like figure shit out on my own and be like, okay.

[01:12:30] So now I know what to do.

[01:12:33] I, I, this was bothering me.

[01:12:34] Now I know what to do to fix it.

[01:12:36] And just kind of step by step with therapy.

[01:12:39] Yeah.

[01:12:39] It was, I was very, and I had people telling me like, oh, don't take them because they're going to screw up this or that.

[01:12:45] And I'm just like, well, it's doctor and you, you know, I did one of those, like, I'm going to try to doctor.

[01:12:54] I think it's important to be critical of both.

[01:12:56] A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

[01:12:58] Because like, again, like, you know, yes, we have free healthcare and like, but like, really I've had a family doctor.

[01:13:04] How are you feeling?

[01:13:05] Well, well, you need a week off.

[01:13:07] Sure.

[01:13:07] Okay.

[01:13:08] Go for it.

[01:13:09] Right.

[01:13:09] Like they're just, they're just there.

[01:13:11] They get paid no matter what.

[01:13:13] And some of them didn't really care.

[01:13:15] Um, I have a very good doctor right now.

[01:13:17] I'm very happy.

[01:13:18] And he was right away.

[01:13:19] He's like, well, let's try adjusting your diet or whatever.

[01:13:24] Let's not jump right away to prescriptions.

[01:13:26] And then if you need to, then we'll get you something.

[01:13:28] Try it for a week, try it for two weeks and then see how you feel.

[01:13:32] And then we'll revisit this.

[01:13:33] So I really like that.

[01:13:35] Um, but yeah, no, sometimes it is, it is just a medical or chemical imbalance.

[01:13:39] Right.

[01:13:40] So did your, um, your panic attacks and your anxiety that you were, were or are, maybe it's

[01:13:47] a constant struggle.

[01:13:48] I don't know.

[01:13:49] Is it, have you, have you found tools and things to prevent the panic attacks from happening?

[01:13:55] Yeah.

[01:13:56] Yeah.

[01:13:56] It was, um, lots of useful things.

[01:13:59] And it's funny cause you know, my therapist knows my job.

[01:14:02] And so she would always joke like, you know, this, but I'm going to tell you again.

[01:14:07] And, and it really worked cause it's, she's right.

[01:14:10] I did know it, but I didn't, I just wasn't thinking of it.

[01:14:13] Or I kind of thought maybe a bit like what you said about journaling earlier.

[01:14:17] I just thought this isn't for me.

[01:14:19] This is, it feels silly to sit and talk to myself or to breathe a certain way or to write

[01:14:24] something down or something.

[01:14:25] It's just, I don't know.

[01:14:27] I'd never actually done that stuff before.

[01:14:29] I just learned about it and told other people to do it, but I did it.

[01:14:33] And it, you know, do you think, do you think it's easier for you to apply what your therapist

[01:14:39] tells you then when you give similar advice to somebody that is not a therapist, just because

[01:14:46] you, you understand like how, even if it's a new or new method that you've never heard

[01:14:51] of, but you know what some of the suggestions that you give can help, how he can help people.

[01:14:57] So do you think it's easier for you to actually apply it to yourself?

[01:15:00] I think I, so I never do.

[01:15:02] When you're told.

[01:15:03] Yeah.

[01:15:04] So I, when I'm in the therapist seat, I never give any suggestions and advice and that CBT

[01:15:10] style stuff because it's just not how I work and I don't particularly like it.

[01:15:14] But I do know that it works.

[01:15:16] I know it's really evidence based and that they do work.

[01:15:19] And so if someone who does work that way just says, and she had a really nice tone about

[01:15:24] her.

[01:15:24] She would be really like, just shut up.

[01:15:27] Like, you know, you need to do what I'm telling you to do.

[01:15:29] Otherwise it's not going to work.

[01:15:30] Is it kind of direct?

[01:15:32] And I appreciated that.

[01:15:34] And I just thought, well, yeah, you know, she's telling me to do it.

[01:15:36] Yeah.

[01:15:37] I've, I know it works.

[01:15:39] If I don't do it at this point, if I have a panic attack, that's on me.

[01:15:42] Like if I haven't even tried and then it happens again, am I really doing anything about it?

[01:15:46] You know, it's.

[01:15:50] I have a silly question.

[01:15:52] Have you ever done therapy to yourself where you looked in the mirror and it's like, you

[01:15:56] ask yourself a question and then you answer your question.

[01:16:00] No, I guess there's, they call it, what is it?

[01:16:05] Socratic questioning.

[01:16:06] Okay.

[01:16:06] Which is kind of tangentially related to therapy, I guess.

[01:16:11] And same with lawyers use it a lot where you, you ask yourself a question, then you

[01:16:15] answer it from the perspective of a person who disagrees or, or whatever.

[01:16:19] And you kind of argue with yourself.

[01:16:21] But I mean, I wouldn't, I mean, that really is just talking to yourself at that point.

[01:16:27] How, how does being doing what you do for a living affect your relationship?

[01:16:36] Pretty badly.

[01:16:37] And I don't know if you want to talk about it or not.

[01:16:39] I'm going to ask you anyways.

[01:16:43] Like relationships are like mine has been strained lately.

[01:16:47] And so like, do you, how does that work with your partner and your schooling and your education

[01:16:54] with confiding in each other or communication with each other?

[01:16:58] Like how, how does it have a positive effect on your relationship?

[01:17:01] Do you use things to better your relationship through your knowledge and education?

[01:17:07] Or are you just having the human experience and you do the same stupid shit and get mad about

[01:17:12] the same stuff or get in trouble for stuff?

[01:17:13] I'm, you're human.

[01:17:15] So yeah, yes, but I would say it's, it's kind of 50, 50 pros and cons.

[01:17:20] And I would say the pros are really good.

[01:17:22] And they're probably things that she doesn't know about, I guess.

[01:17:26] But there are times when I'm patient where she probably doesn't know I'm being patient.

[01:17:31] She thinks she's not annoying me and I'm, and I am annoyed, but I'm working through

[01:17:36] it quietly.

[01:17:37] So I should cut this part out in case you listen.

[01:17:42] And there are times when I'm empathizing, when she may not appreciate just how much I am

[01:17:47] empathizing, but I'm really truly caring about what she's thinking and using that to be considerate

[01:17:52] and make different decisions so that her life becomes easier.

[01:17:56] And I think I probably, no, I know I didn't do that in previous relationships.

[01:18:00] That's, that's new.

[01:18:01] Okay.

[01:18:02] Um, the, the level of it, obviously I tried to be a good boyfriend, but I think the

[01:18:07] approach is more conscious now.

[01:18:09] Um, but then there are downsides.

[01:18:11] Like she, I mean, I don't agree.

[01:18:14] So it's hard for me to say this is what happens.

[01:18:16] She would say that in arguments, there comes a point where it's like, I just kind of switch

[01:18:22] into a different mode and then straight away she'll be like, look, if you're going to be

[01:18:26] like that, we're not having the conversation.

[01:18:27] Yeah.

[01:18:28] And that's what is that mode?

[01:18:30] By the way, she would say, don't be a therapist.

[01:18:32] Okay.

[01:18:32] And I will say, fuck off.

[01:18:34] No, it's annoying because I don't think I'm doing it.

[01:18:39] I think it's just, this is how I am.

[01:18:43] This is why I do this job and so on.

[01:18:46] But I can appreciate that that is annoying for her.

[01:18:49] And so would it be your line of questioning or just your general approach the tone?

[01:18:55] Yeah.

[01:18:55] I think it's a tone and I see you're upset.

[01:18:59] Yeah.

[01:18:59] That kind of thing, that kind of thing, which tell me about why you're feeling that way.

[01:19:05] And she just finds it, you know, really seriously patronizing and annoying.

[01:19:11] Just annoying.

[01:19:12] It's just like, why is this guy who is supposed to just love me being like this?

[01:19:19] Does she want you to be more emotional or that's what I always get.

[01:19:24] I'm dead and I'm okay.

[01:19:26] Okay.

[01:19:27] I'm hard to read for my wife.

[01:19:29] And like, she would love it if when we got in an argument, I didn't try and be logical

[01:19:34] about everything.

[01:19:35] Yeah.

[01:19:35] And I get that because she's a very emotional being.

[01:19:39] She's a fiery, spicy lady.

[01:19:41] It's good.

[01:19:41] I love that about her, but I fucking hate it when we're arguing because to me, it's like,

[01:19:47] like I said, very early on in the show, like, give me a job and I'll do the job.

[01:19:51] Yeah.

[01:19:51] So it's like, you're mad.

[01:19:53] What the fuck do you want me to do about it?

[01:19:55] And then like, within reason I can do something about it.

[01:19:58] But it, it's not even what she wants in that moment.

[01:20:01] She wants to argue.

[01:20:02] She wants to like, she wants the fire about it.

[01:20:04] She wants me to be fiery.

[01:20:06] So that I think it, I think for her, it's about, she wants to feel like I'm feeling something

[01:20:13] and I just never want to fucking feel anything.

[01:20:15] So it's like, no, I don't want to, this is me feeling it.

[01:20:17] Like, no.

[01:20:20] It's so hard not to just be like, why?

[01:20:24] Like what?

[01:20:28] I don't know.

[01:20:29] Does she want me to be more emotional?

[01:20:30] Probably.

[01:20:33] Probably.

[01:20:34] Or more expressive.

[01:20:35] Yeah.

[01:20:35] I don't know if it's emotional.

[01:20:37] I think you know what I'm trying to, what I'm getting at.

[01:20:39] I don't, I don't think so.

[01:20:40] I think if, I don't know if she would agree with this and I don't want to say things that

[01:20:44] are just untrue.

[01:20:45] But I suppose from my perspective, I feel like that's the other way around sometimes.

[01:20:51] I think I'm more in touch with what I feel than she is.

[01:20:55] Okay.

[01:20:56] I'm going to put a big asterisk and say that she probably sees that quite differently.

[01:21:00] Yeah.

[01:21:01] That's the beauty of relationships.

[01:21:03] Yeah.

[01:21:03] But I guess, like you said, that's, that's, that's relationships, right?

[01:21:07] That's the human experience rather than anything related to therapy, I guess.

[01:21:10] That's just, sometimes you want the person to be logical.

[01:21:14] Sometimes you want them to be emotional.

[01:21:15] And if those aren't lining up.

[01:21:16] Yeah.

[01:21:17] It's going to be an argument.

[01:21:18] And sometimes women can't pick and they want both at the same time.

[01:21:21] Yeah.

[01:21:21] I don't know.

[01:21:21] Can I say that?

[01:21:23] It's my show.

[01:21:24] I'll say whatever I want.

[01:21:26] Your wife doesn't listen.

[01:21:27] So yeah, that's true.

[01:21:28] She doesn't listen to it.

[01:21:29] You might want to be more careful.

[01:21:31] Nah.

[01:21:31] It's fine.

[01:21:32] Um, I guess something to, we're kind of coming up on probably enough of taking enough

[01:21:37] of your time, but, um, just in general, as I'm going to speak to the therapist now,

[01:21:44] what are some good, we get people calling in, they want to get or calling and emailing,

[01:21:50] asking us stuff, questions aside from the constant encouragement we give people to, if

[01:21:56] they feel they should, they should go see somebody and talk to somebody who does what

[01:22:01] you do professionally.

[01:22:02] You do also do it professionally.

[01:22:04] Just that I wasn't trying to take away from that.

[01:22:06] Um, what are some tools and things people can use during just day to day life?

[01:22:12] The human experience of struggles that you have found effective, maybe in your own life

[01:22:17] or effective tools you've given people that have worked for them.

[01:22:21] Hmm.

[01:22:21] Maybe kind of the top three.

[01:22:23] Yeah.

[01:22:24] So these are, these are very much the, this is CBT, I guess this is, uh,

[01:22:29] Which is not your preferred method, but.

[01:22:30] Well, that's, it's has its place obviously.

[01:22:33] And I think, um, a really good thing about CBT is that the things you read in Google on,

[01:22:39] on Google, if you just Google like how to, you know, deal with depression or whatever,

[01:22:43] the results are actually really good.

[01:22:44] They're no different from the ones that were shown in college.

[01:22:46] They're, they're great.

[01:22:47] So things like, so I'm trying to think of a top three.

[01:22:51] I would say mindfulness is, mindfulness is one that I have suggested to people.

[01:22:56] I think mindfulness is great.

[01:22:58] It, so that would be, what's an entry level mindfulness thing?

[01:23:02] It would be something like the, it's either the one, two, three, four, five or five, four, three, two, one.

[01:23:06] So you sit in a space on your own.

[01:23:11] Uh, I say on your own, you can do this just, I mean, I, I've gone into public bathrooms in shopping centers to do this for a moment if I'm stressed.

[01:23:19] And just, what is it?

[01:23:21] Five, five things you hear, four things you smell, three things you see, something like that.

[01:23:29] Work it out.

[01:23:29] It's probably five things you see, right?

[01:23:31] And then four things you hear.

[01:23:33] Probably.

[01:23:33] Three things you smell, two things you can touch and so on.

[01:23:37] Um, and that's really great doing that for a period of time.

[01:23:40] It's, it's proven to lower your heart rate and that's great.

[01:23:42] If you're stressed and feeling anywhere close to a panic attack, by the time you're having the panic attack, no amount of talking and thinking is going to get rid of that.

[01:23:53] Cause that's a chemical reaction by that point is happening.

[01:23:56] And so things you can do that literally lower your heart rate are great.

[01:24:00] So mindfulness is top of the list for me.

[01:24:02] Um, breathing exercises.

[01:24:04] There's something called box breathing, which just involves, you know, breathing in on a certain count out on a certain count.

[01:24:10] You can find the numbers for that, like breathe in for three seconds or whatever.

[01:24:14] I think it's better to just do what feels comfortable.

[01:24:16] Pick a number that feels comfortable for you.

[01:24:18] Breathe in, hold it, breathe out.

[01:24:21] Do that for an amount of time that you can realistically do at your workplace or wherever you are at that time.

[01:24:26] Um, again, that, that will lower your heart rate and that will feel better.

[01:24:30] It just will.

[01:24:31] Um, so those two are pretty direct.

[01:24:34] Like in the moment I'm feeling something and that I don't want to feel things that people, I'm going to say should do to address what they're feeling.

[01:24:44] Um, so I'm trying to think of a third that is a bit broader in terms of like a general sense of unhappiness or something.

[01:24:51] Or maybe something that you do.

[01:24:53] Like this can be your own, it doesn't have to be a question for the therapist.

[01:24:56] It can be a question for Daniel.

[01:24:59] What do you do to maintain your mental health and improve it?

[01:25:06] So a lot like that, that friend I described earlier who had a really conscious approach to the workplace.

[01:25:12] Like here's how you find a career.

[01:25:14] I would say really think about when you are content, not, not happy, but just content where nothing feels wrong.

[01:25:21] And for most people, I think that is something that's kind of lame that they don't talk about a lot like, um, video games or, or a hobby or watching a certain TV show.

[01:25:31] They've watched a hundred times, like watching the office in bed or getting a gang, take out food and, you know, having a sitting with your partner or sitting on your own, whatever it is really carve out time to do that.

[01:25:43] And I know that's easier said than done for some people, if you've got kids, especially, but if you can find a small window to do that each week or preferably each day, doing that will make a massive difference to your wellbeing.

[01:25:55] It's, it sounds so obvious, but so many people I see their lives are like 90% doing things they don't want to do.

[01:26:04] They've got a job they don't like.

[01:26:06] I'm sure they love their kids, but the kids are stressful.

[01:26:09] And then, you know, there's, there's housework and there's things like that.

[01:26:12] You can not like them and still love them.

[01:26:13] Yeah.

[01:26:14] Yeah.

[01:26:17] And I don't like my kids.

[01:26:19] I love them.

[01:26:22] I don't have to like them all the time.

[01:26:24] No.

[01:26:24] So I think, I think it's a really important thing.

[01:26:26] It's just like going, it's crazy.

[01:26:29] Cause if you say like, I'm going to the gym for an hour, everyone respects that as though it's super valuable.

[01:26:33] But if you say, I'm going to sit down and watch Netflix for an hour, suddenly that's bad.

[01:26:38] Or I'm going to play Call of Duty for an hour.

[01:26:40] That's bad.

[01:26:40] Yeah.

[01:26:41] But it's, I just, I promise you it isn't.

[01:26:43] It's just, it's just really, really good.

[01:26:46] Yeah.

[01:26:46] If that's what you like doing.

[01:26:47] I forget who I talked to.

[01:26:49] I think it was, uh, with intergalactic sauces guys.

[01:26:52] The first time they were on it's that.

[01:26:55] Yeah.

[01:26:55] Like it could be as simple as eating a bag of chips is making me feel really great right

[01:27:01] now.

[01:27:01] Yeah.

[01:27:02] Right.

[01:27:02] Like who's, who's to say that that's not good for you.

[01:27:05] I mean, sure.

[01:27:07] It's not good for you from a nutritional.

[01:27:09] If you need to do it every day, maybe find something else.

[01:27:25] Yeah.

[01:27:26] I agree.

[01:27:26] I think that the thing about it being bad for you does come into that.

[01:27:30] There's actually an important distinction because I think bag of chips is obviously quite

[01:27:33] low on the bad for you scale, but alcohol and drugs obviously would come up if you're

[01:27:38] just trying to treat the feeling constantly.

[01:27:40] And drinking for not drinking is really bad for him.

[01:27:44] It sure is.

[01:27:46] It's actually more worse for the people around me, but.

[01:27:50] Um, Daniel, thank you very much for, uh, again, agreeing and, and coming to join us on our

[01:27:58] show.

[01:27:58] Yeah.

[01:27:58] Thanks for having me.

[01:27:59] Um, yeah, I think we could, we could have you on for hours.

[01:28:03] I think we can keep picking your brain, but I think at one point you would just start charging

[01:28:08] us.

[01:28:09] So we got to cut it off.

[01:28:12] No, but, um, I, uh, I really hope that you join us every once in a while.

[01:28:17] Um, just maybe do a little update on how things are and, and, um, maybe we'll have some

[01:28:24] more questions for you, uh, from some listeners or something if you're willing to join us again.

[01:28:28] Uh, yeah, I'd be more than happy to really enjoyed it.

[01:28:30] Yeah.

[01:28:30] Thank you so much for being here.

[01:28:32] And, uh, I, I really do appreciate you giving us your time.

[01:28:36] I mean, this is part of the hours you don't have to listen to people talk about their

[01:28:40] feelings.

[01:28:41] And now you've sat here for an hour and had to mostly do that.

[01:28:44] So thank you for that.

[01:28:45] It's no problem.

[01:28:46] I've really enjoyed it.

[01:28:47] Genuinely.

[01:28:47] No, I'm very grateful.

[01:28:48] I'm always so grateful for everybody that chooses to sit in your spot and, and open up

[01:28:53] to us and talk about us and talk to us and listen to us.

[01:28:56] It just really does mean the world.

[01:28:58] And I think it means the world to a lot more than just the two people in this room.

[01:29:01] And so, uh, I just, I'm very grateful on behalf of us and everybody who listens for you being

[01:29:07] willing to share your experience and your, your knowledge with us.

[01:29:10] So thank you for that.

[01:29:11] Yeah.

[01:29:11] A little token of appreciation.

[01:29:12] Oh, no way.

[01:29:14] That's actually great.

[01:29:15] Cause I was looking at this.

[01:29:16] Let me have a look.

[01:29:17] Healing starts with a single conversation and then the logo on the other side.

[01:29:21] That's actually great.

[01:29:23] Thank you very, very much.

[01:29:24] Feel free to, uh, have your coffee with your patients, you know, and just like, Hey, uh,

[01:29:27] yes, I will.

[01:29:29] You want to check this podcast out.

[01:29:30] It's really great.

[01:29:31] I do.

[01:29:32] I get a lot of comments at work on my, my mug choice actually.

[01:29:35] Cause it's the only thing that people know about me a lot of the time.

[01:29:37] Is your mug?

[01:29:38] Yeah.

[01:29:38] Do you have like a mug collection?

[01:29:40] Yeah, we do.

[01:29:41] Oh, do you?

[01:29:41] Okay.

[01:29:42] That's awesome.

[01:29:43] Well, Winnipeg is lucky to have you and thank you for being here and, uh, enjoy winter.

[01:29:49] We'll talk to you some other time.

[01:29:50] Awesome.

[01:29:50] Well, thank you so much again for being here.

[01:29:52] Yeah.

[01:29:52] Thank you.

[01:29:52] Thanks.

[01:29:53] Hey, Tommy, among all the episodes we've recorded, you know, there's one common theme

[01:29:58] and that's getting therapy.

[01:30:01] We've talked about it lots.

[01:30:02] Many, many times.

[01:30:04] You had a really tough time making that first phone call.

[01:30:06] I had a tough time making that first phone call.

[01:30:09] I didn't even know if the person I was going to see was the right person, but you got to

[01:30:13] just try.

[01:30:15] Thank goodness.

[01:30:16] We have a sponsor that makes it way easier.

[01:30:17] Now better help has an online platform that allows you to fill out a questionnaire.

[01:30:23] They connect you with a therapist and you get to communicate with them however you want.

[01:30:27] And it makes it way less scary to be connected with someone.

[01:30:31] And if you're not into the person you talk to, they'll sign you another one right away.

[01:30:36] I've gotten assigned mine already.

[01:30:37] And I can't wait to use it.

[01:30:39] Like by the time you hear this, I will have had my first session and I'm super pumped

[01:30:43] to talk about it on the show.

[01:30:44] Yeah.

[01:30:44] I'm very excited about it.

[01:30:46] And like, it's very easy to sign up.

[01:30:48] It took us maybe five minutes to sign up and you answer just simple questions.

[01:30:53] And next thing you know, you got a message that you will be paired up with a therapist.

[01:30:59] And within the same day we got the therapist already and the name and a message from them

[01:31:04] and we were able to communicate with them.

[01:31:06] So it's extremely easy.

[01:31:08] So please go to betterhelp.com.

[01:31:11] What was that the thing?

[01:31:11] Yeah, that's the thing.

[01:31:12] Betterhelp.com slash quiet riot show.

[01:31:22] So again, right here, I'm going to be doing it from here.

[01:31:26] Yeah, it's betterhelp.com.

[01:31:28] Am I screwing it up?

[01:31:29] .com slash quiet riot show.

[01:31:33] Yeah, sign up today and you're not going to regret it because I'm already enjoying it

[01:31:38] just the fact that we connected with a therapist.

[01:31:41] Me too, man.

[01:31:42] Thank you to BetterHelp for supporting this podcast.

[01:31:45] Okay.

[01:31:46] How do you feel?

[01:31:48] We didn't have to use a Kleenex, so that's good.

[01:31:50] Right?

[01:31:51] I didn't cry.

[01:31:53] No, he was great.

[01:31:55] He was fantastic.

[01:31:56] I had totally forgot until he spoke when he first, I knew he was English, but I had totally

[01:32:03] forgot that like, oh, he's English, English.

[01:32:06] Like he's gonna, he has an accent and everything.

[01:32:09] Yeah.

[01:32:09] It's very calming.

[01:32:10] Oh, absolutely.

[01:32:11] His accent is very calming.

[01:32:13] And he's calming actually.

[01:32:14] Yeah, his voice.

[01:32:14] He was like very, I don't know.

[01:32:17] I can see him being a great therapist actually.

[01:32:20] Like I pictured him and like, I think again, like he was one of those guests that I was

[01:32:26] probably just staring at him with my jaw over half open, you know?

[01:32:30] It's just like, holy shit.

[01:32:32] It's you like every three episodes.

[01:32:34] Yeah.

[01:32:34] Like, well, I really get into it.

[01:32:36] And like, you're a really good talker or interviewer.

[01:32:39] Like you, you.

[01:32:40] I don't know if I didn't feel like I did a lot of interviewing today.

[01:32:43] But I think when you have a lot of questions and a lot of like, yeah, but you don't have

[01:32:46] just, okay.

[01:32:47] Uh, so what do you blah, blah, blah.

[01:32:49] Yeah.

[01:32:49] No, no, no.

[01:32:50] You, you kind of work your way up to the question.

[01:32:53] And I really like that.

[01:32:54] So that's what I'm just like.

[01:32:55] I try.

[01:32:55] I think I over talk sometimes.

[01:32:57] Yeah.

[01:32:57] I guess that's just too fucking bad for everybody who has to listen.

[01:33:01] Exactly.

[01:33:01] No, but that's good.

[01:33:02] I'd like it.

[01:33:03] And it was a really good conversation.

[01:33:05] And, uh, I, yeah, like I really hope we can get him more on and, uh, maybe even have

[01:33:12] a segment once in a while.

[01:33:13] Just like ask a therapist where people can be, we might be asking too much.

[01:33:17] I mean, I'm just, I'm hoping to develop a relationship where he's going to, if you're

[01:33:21] listening to this, you can just tell us to fuck off.

[01:33:23] Absolutely.

[01:33:24] Hey, do you want to know?

[01:33:25] Okay.

[01:33:26] That's cool, man.

[01:33:27] Well, good luck with your life.

[01:33:30] No, but yeah, he's a great guy.

[01:33:32] He was very kind.

[01:33:32] He was very, he's very gentle.

[01:33:34] He's very like he just, yeah.

[01:33:36] Like you said, I can see him being a good therapist.

[01:33:39] My, my favorite parts were like just how, how he's like, well, I'm not supposed to say

[01:33:44] this as a therapist, but, and then you kind of pointed out like it while you're here

[01:33:48] as Daniel.

[01:33:49] Yeah.

[01:33:49] It was, I wanted to actually, I think I'd like to next time.

[01:33:54] Cause he talked about a couple of things that were personal.

[01:33:57] Yeah.

[01:33:57] When we got into like, why did you become a therapist?

[01:34:00] And we didn't actually dig into that story at all.

[01:34:02] So I think if we have him back, I think we have Daniel back.

[01:34:06] Yeah.

[01:34:07] Cause today was more about the therapist.

[01:34:09] Yes.

[01:34:10] I think we have Daniel, the person back cause he's a, he grew up in the UK.

[01:34:15] He has an interesting, there's something in his youth that is very interesting or very,

[01:34:19] yes.

[01:34:19] I was just going to say that.

[01:34:20] That I would like to know more about.

[01:34:21] Yeah.

[01:34:22] Um, just for our listeners and for us.

[01:34:25] And I think he has a story to tell that's very, he, he's from the UK and he lives in Winnipeg

[01:34:29] now.

[01:34:29] Yeah.

[01:34:29] So like, yeah.

[01:34:30] There's a story there.

[01:34:32] For sure.

[01:34:32] And there's a lot of things that probably happened to create that story.

[01:34:35] Well, and you know, I kind of, I guess I can relate to it a little bit because I know

[01:34:40] he moved later in his life compared to me.

[01:34:43] I moved right after high school, but you know, I, there, there's a reason why I wanted

[01:34:50] to get the fuck out of there.

[01:34:51] Yeah.

[01:34:51] Right.

[01:34:52] And, and to make a big step and commitment as a teenager, I was 18, but still a teenager.

[01:34:59] You did it cause you fell in love.

[01:35:01] I'm sure.

[01:35:02] Yeah.

[01:35:02] Did, did you, did you draw that?

[01:35:03] Did you draw that parallel?

[01:35:05] No.

[01:35:06] That's what happened.

[01:35:07] Well, maybe, but.

[01:35:08] You fucking losers.

[01:35:10] No, I'm joking.

[01:35:11] But, uh, you know, to, as a teenager, like you're really, you don't know what the hell

[01:35:18] is going to happen in your life.

[01:35:19] You know, like you're just like, Oh yeah, let's do it.

[01:35:21] You know, you kind of just do things, but I think I'm not sure how old he is, but we

[01:35:26] could, I guess we could have asked, but he moved.

[01:35:29] He moved as an adult here.

[01:35:30] Yeah.

[01:35:31] And what did you say for four years ago?

[01:35:33] Yeah.

[01:35:33] And then to make that big of a commitment to move to a new country across the ocean, like

[01:35:39] that's, that's a fucking big step.

[01:35:42] And, and there, there must be a reason.

[01:35:44] His girlfriend must be a lovely lady.

[01:35:46] Yeah.

[01:35:47] Um, and yeah, like maybe it is just, there was that strong connection that, you know,

[01:35:52] help him make that decision.

[01:35:53] Maybe there's something else.

[01:35:54] So that's something maybe we could unwrap in the future.

[01:35:57] Yeah.

[01:35:57] I think next time Daniel comes on the show.

[01:36:00] Okay.

[01:36:00] Sounds good.

[01:36:01] Unless he's not going to want to, I mean, we're just making wild statements and assumptions

[01:36:06] that he'll want.

[01:36:07] Hey, why don't you come on and just tell us all about your life?

[01:36:10] Yeah.

[01:36:10] I don't think everyone wants to do that.

[01:36:12] Yeah.

[01:36:14] No, he was very forthcoming and he was, uh, we just didn't dig into it.

[01:36:18] I just said so many, like, we finally have a therapist on the show.

[01:36:22] Let's make sure we get the most out of it.

[01:36:23] And I don't even know if we did, but like, I could have just rifled them with questions

[01:36:27] for four hours.

[01:36:28] And, uh, one thing I, I, you know, I kind of wanted to actually ask you during the check-in,

[01:36:33] but I kind of forgot.

[01:36:35] Um, how are you doing with the no booze?

[01:36:37] Let's do a little update on.

[01:36:39] Okay.

[01:36:39] So one side thing.

[01:36:41] So after Blake's episode, uh, one of Blake's buddies or someone he knows had messaged him

[01:36:47] on Instagram cause Blake's been posting about it.

[01:36:49] Thank you.

[01:36:49] Thank you.

[01:36:50] Um, and Blake just asked that he had said some nice things about the show and he actually

[01:36:54] might want to come on as a guest, which is great.

[01:36:56] I guess he's got a story he would like to share.

[01:36:58] Yeah.

[01:36:58] I love that.

[01:36:59] Um, Blake had said, Oh, how'd you enjoy it?

[01:37:01] He goes, Oh man, it was great.

[01:37:02] It was like 5% you talking about your struggle.

[01:37:05] And then 95% Tommy and Tim calling each other pussies for quitting drinking for three

[01:37:10] months.

[01:37:13] So I guess I, I think I was pretty fired up about the no booze thing for Blake's episode.

[01:37:19] Mind you, Blake is one of my friends who I don't think I've ever hung out with Blake and not

[01:37:25] had a drink.

[01:37:26] Mm.

[01:37:26] Hmm.

[01:37:26] I was going to say like, like that must've been really weird.

[01:37:29] I'm not sure I've ever hung out with anybody and not had a drink.

[01:37:31] So maybe there's nothing special.

[01:37:32] The first time, the first time I met Blake in person was at that golf tournament that

[01:37:37] we did.

[01:37:37] Yeah.

[01:37:38] That one.

[01:37:39] Can you post one of those pictures on our Instagram?

[01:37:42] Sure.

[01:37:42] Yeah.

[01:37:42] We have them still.

[01:37:43] Oh God.

[01:37:43] I for sure have them.

[01:37:45] I might have to blur some, some parts out.

[01:37:47] It'll be the first time you met Blake.

[01:37:49] Yeah.

[01:37:50] That'll be a great follow up post to the episode.

[01:37:53] Oh my God.

[01:37:53] So I'm going to demand that you do that.

[01:37:55] I will do that.

[01:37:56] Yeah, for sure.

[01:37:56] Um, God.

[01:37:58] But the no, but I don't know.

[01:38:00] Like I said earlier, I'm a four right now and like, I would love nothing more than to

[01:38:06] have a bunch of whiskeys and just forget about being a four.

[01:38:09] But like, I know part of why we're doing this is to like, just not do that.

[01:38:15] Yeah.

[01:38:15] Just do, just do the challenge.

[01:38:17] And so I'm just not doing it and it's, it's frustrating.

[01:38:19] It's actually gotten, it's getting harder.

[01:38:22] So you, you've now smoking more weed.

[01:38:26] Not much.

[01:38:27] Not much.

[01:38:27] No, I don't, I'm not like a huge, like I don't, I wouldn't say every day.

[01:38:31] Yeah.

[01:38:31] Um, but yeah, more.

[01:38:33] Yeah.

[01:38:34] Same thing.

[01:38:34] Like I probably like every right now, probably like every other day for sure.

[01:38:38] Oh, okay.

[01:38:38] Yeah.

[01:38:39] Yeah.

[01:38:40] Are you, I like it.

[01:38:42] Is part of you worried that you're going to make the switch and smoke more weed and drink

[01:38:46] less?

[01:38:47] No, man.

[01:38:47] I love whiskey.

[01:38:48] I just really love whiskey.

[01:38:50] I like weed definitely, but I love whiskey.

[01:38:54] Yeah.

[01:38:54] Yeah.

[01:38:54] I've definitely been having more edibles for sure.

[01:38:57] Yeah.

[01:38:58] Nice.

[01:38:58] And it's, it's, it's absolutely amazing.

[01:39:03] It conks me out.

[01:39:05] Like I take it at like eight o'clock, let's say by eight 30.

[01:39:08] I'm just like, I'm ready for bed by nine o'clock.

[01:39:11] I'm asleep.

[01:39:12] Yeah.

[01:39:12] And like, so I'd be waking up and I'm like, so this is what it feels like getting a good

[01:39:17] night of rest.

[01:39:18] Holy shit.

[01:39:20] I got stoned last night.

[01:39:22] Not the genius.

[01:39:23] And watched house after everyone went to bed.

[01:39:25] House.

[01:39:26] That show with the doctor who he's a fucking dickhead, but he's a super genius.

[01:39:33] Oh, I never watched that show.

[01:39:34] It's pretty good.

[01:39:35] Yeah.

[01:39:35] Actually he's, he, well he makes it really good.

[01:39:38] He's a great character.

[01:39:39] See the thing is edibles just like, I made, they make me want to go to sleep.

[01:39:43] So like, I did not care what's on TV.

[01:39:46] Just like, I was just like, literally one eye open, like try to watch.

[01:39:51] I think my wife falls asleep to a family guy.

[01:39:54] Nice.

[01:39:55] And then so I'm just like watching it.

[01:39:56] And like, I was, I was so, well, it dries my mouth.

[01:40:01] Oh yeah.

[01:40:01] And like, I was so thirsty, but I'm just like, I'm so comfortable.

[01:40:04] I'm not moving.

[01:40:05] And like, I've been thirsty for almost a month now.

[01:40:08] So, but it's been a month that I mean, if you think about it, it, well, by the time

[01:40:15] this is out.

[01:40:15] We've got one more weekend to get through.

[01:40:16] But this is once this is out.

[01:40:18] Oh yeah.

[01:40:18] True.

[01:40:19] It will have been a month.

[01:40:20] Yeah.

[01:40:21] Um, it's, it's, it's, it went by fast.

[01:40:25] Like, okay.

[01:40:26] You know, I'm glad for you.

[01:40:27] For me.

[01:40:28] It's just even like, because life's busy and, and just, I don't think it's going to

[01:40:34] be that hard if I get the break.

[01:40:38] Okay.

[01:40:40] Yeah.

[01:40:40] I still haven't decided about the break yet.

[01:40:42] That's you're going to crack.

[01:40:46] I'm not deciding either way yet.

[01:40:48] Me and RJ are showing up in your house.

[01:40:53] Shout out to RJ.

[01:40:56] Anyways.

[01:40:57] Um, thanks for tuning in guys.

[01:40:59] Uh, please follow us on social media.

[01:41:01] Daniel, if you're listening, thank you again.

[01:41:03] Thank you very much.

[01:41:04] We, we, we thanked you when you were here, but you're, thank you so much.

[01:41:07] Yeah.

[01:41:07] Like I'm just, I'm always so grateful.

[01:41:09] Everybody actually does this.

[01:41:12] A hundred percent.

[01:41:13] Um, yeah.

[01:41:14] Instagram, Facebook, take talk at quite at quiet ride show, uh, on YouTube.

[01:41:20] It's quiet ride show as well.

[01:41:22] And send us an email just like, uh, one of our listeners, uh, Carlo, he sent us an email.

[01:41:26] It was a perfect question to ask when we had a therapist on, uh, quiet ride show at gmail.com.

[01:41:32] Um, and yeah, just, uh, rate the show and let us know what you think.

[01:41:37] Tell your friends about it.

[01:41:38] Yeah.

[01:41:38] Thank you.

[01:41:39] Share it.

[01:41:39] See you everybody.

[01:41:40] Bye.

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